# Silent Sam is down! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 21, 2018, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960 "2018-08-21T10:59:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/141 "2018-08-22T19:27:35Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The statue is to honor the war dead. Perhaps you’d like to go into all the Civil war cemeteries and destroy the Confederate grave markers, also? …you realize this is a really vacant argument, right? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/142 "2018-08-22T19:42:48Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The statue is to honor the war dead. And to tell the coloreds to stay in their place. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > It began in 1812 when Massachusetts Governor Elbridge Gerry signed a bill that redistricted Massachusetts. It probably goes back further, to the “rotten boroughs” in Parliament. But that wasn’t really the question. ---
**Author:** ![Taber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac91a4/32.png) [@Taber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taber)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/143 "2018-08-22T20:17:32Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > The statue is to honor the war dead. Given this in the OP, I’m not sure that’s true > [@](#): > > During the dedication speech, the orator bragged about torturing–in public, in broad daylight, without the slightest fear of punishment–a black woman, for the crime of not knowing her place. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/144 "2018-08-22T20:23:47Z")
> [@Taber](#): > > Given this in the OP, I’m not sure that’s true Yes, that guy was a sick, evil racist. So? He only gave a speech, he didnt erect it, pay for it or anything. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/145 "2018-08-22T20:24:42Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > They could have taken it down before the law was passed. They didnt choose to. The sparking impetus to the recent removal of Confederate memorials was the Charleston Church massacre. This is when folks decided to concentrate on these symbols of hatred and oppression, and their long-time defenders found their usual BS ‘Heritage’ arguments looked very empty after the Roof was shown photographed with multiple such emblems. The Church shooting was on June 17th. On July 23rd, the Governor of North Carolina protecting the monuments. That’s a month and a week, when most colleges are on break. In a state that has over 100 such monuments. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/146 "2018-08-22T20:27:09Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, that guy was a sick, evil racist. So? He only gave a speech, he didnt erect it, pay for it or anything. That he was selected to give that speech (and was not repudiated afterwards) tells us something about what the sponsors believed was the purpose of this statue. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/147 "2018-08-22T20:37:59Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That he was selected to give that speech (and was not repudiated afterwards) tells us something about what the sponsors believed was the purpose of this statue. The main group that’s responsible for putting up the statue is the [United Daughters of the Confederacy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Daughters_of_the_Confederacy). A white supremacist organization. They are also responsible for the [Jefferson Davis Highway](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Davis_Highway). This is relevant because Franklin Street in Chapel Hill is part of the Jefferson Davis Highway and Silent Sam used to be facing Franklin Street. Let’s get rid of this abomination as well. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/148 "2018-08-22T20:48:50Z")
as expected the Raleigh civil war monuments are not moving [Historical Commission votes to keep, add context to Confederate memorials](https://www.wral.com/confederate-monument-fight-returns-to-state-capitol-wednesday/17785591/) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/149 "2018-08-22T20:54:12Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That makes it pretty clear to me - he would have condoned pulling down this statue. What part? What that says to me is: “violence against people” \> “arson” \> “looting (violence against property)”. It doesn’t say any of those things is OK. King seems to be saying that the police responding to “looting” as if it were “violence against people”, and that was wrong. He was offering an explanation as to how the violence came about, but I don’t see it as an endorsement or as an encouragement to act violently. He would have condemned acts by the police to inflict physical harm on the folks who pulled down the statue, which is what he was saying in that quote. Here is [what King said about violence:](https://ivn.us/2016/07/08/martin-luther-king-jr-said-violence-protest/) > [@](#): > > “Violence as a way of achieving racial justice is both impractical and immoral. I am not unmindful of the fact that violence often brings about momentary results. Nations have frequently won their independence in battle. But in spite of temporary victories, violence never brings permanent peace. It solves no social problem: it merely creates new and more complicated ones. > > \ > > The nonviolent resisters can summarize their message in the following simple terms: we will take direct action against injustice despite the failure of governmental and other official agencies to act first. We will not obey unjust laws or submit to unjust practices. We will do this peacefully, openly, cheerfully because our aim is to persuade. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/150 "2018-08-22T20:56:27Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That he was selected to give that speech (and was not repudiated afterwards) tells us something about what the sponsors believed was the purpose of this statue. You don’t know that he was selected! Cite that he wasn’t some guy walking by who shouted out his ramblings. Maybe he spoke eloquently against the Civil War and against white supremacy, and the historian just hated him and made up all that stuff. Cite that the historian recorded his words accurately. While you’re at it, cite that he was speaking English? Cite that he wasn’t reciting a traditional love poem in Cambodian, and transcribed phonetically it sounds like a racist speech but it wasn’t. YOU DON’T KNOW!!! (Alternatively, we could just stop treating such deeply unserious arguments as though they’re serious). ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/151 "2018-08-22T20:59:02Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Here is [what King said about violence:](https://ivn.us/2016/07/08/martin-luther-king-jr-said-violence-protest/) That’s what he said about violence against people. He clearly and repeated distinguishes between people and property at that link. If that’s not enough for you, I think it’s because you’re approaching King’s words with preconceptions. You can disagree with King, sure; he’s not writing the Gospel. But to suggest he disapproved against destruction of property because he disapproved of violence against humans is to deeply misunderstand his stated beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/152 "2018-08-22T21:22:52Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Slavery is still legal and constitutional. That said, the non punishment form of slavery is one of those circumstances that trump law. If you are arguing from the axiom that each human has intrinsic natural rights that is. Which is an axiom I accept. I take it that you are referring to prisoners with the first sentence? Yeah, there are those who are trying to re institute slavery, and I’m against that too. But, you say that the form of slavery that we had in this country prior to fighting a war trumped the law? How did half of the country feel about that? If people decide that these circumstances trump law, then what is the point of laws, if people can just choose which laws fetter them, and which laws are trumped by circumstance. I do agree with the idea that each human has natural rights. You have the right to gravity, the electromagnetic force, and whatever you can manage to do with the weak and strong forces. Everything else is a right that is granted by society. To test this, try to violate something that you consider to be an intrinsic natural right. If intrinsic nature stops you, then that is an intrinsic natural right. For instance, try to deny your worst enemy gravity. Can’t do it, can you? That’s because it is intrinsic and natural. Now, I certainly would not suggest that you enslave anyone, but imagine if you did. Hey, you were able to do that. That’s because there is nothing intrinsic or natural preventing you from doing so. The only thing that protects your rights is society. You have a right to not be murdered, because if you are society will attempt to catch and punish your murderer. You have a right to not be stolen from, because society will attempt to catch and punish the thief (and maybe return your stolen property.) You have a right to not be enslaved, because society said, “FUCK THAT”, and we killed and died to establish that right. So, as you say that slavery trumps law, for reasons, that means that other things trump law, under different circumstances. Can you explain why exactly slavery trumps laws, but monuments to the institution of slavery do not? > [@](#): > > Is it regressive because it enacted legislation you disagree with? Is the whole US regressive and undemocratic because we have a republic and a supreme court? No, it is regressive because it is trying to peal back progressive civil rights that many considered to be settled law. Would you consider legalizing slavery to be regressive, or just legislation you disagree with? > [@](#): > > The public process is changing the state legislature. That is a public process. It might move slower than you in particular would wish but it’s a far better process than whatever process LHoD is afraid to speak of because he wasn’t addressed with the appropriate obsequiousness. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Not really. Yes there was the 3/5th compromise, and a ban on importing slaves after 1808. So, it was mentioned, but unlike the various CSA Constitutions, there was nothing implicitly making it Constitutional. Congress could have banned slavery by a simple bill, not a amendment. After the thirteenth amendment, slavery was unconstitutional. Before that, it was constitutional, states were free to make laws regarding their peculiar institution. Slavery was illegal in many of the northern states long before the civil war. There was also the fugitive slave clause, meaning that as long as one state recognized slavery, all states had to cooperate. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/153 "2018-08-22T21:34:18Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Second, you and I both know that your claim is completely untrue. The purpose of this, and the other confederate statues put up in that era, was to honor white supremacy. Do not appear to accuse other posters of lying. If you feel you must, the Pit is right around the corner. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/154 "2018-08-22T21:52:25Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > That’s what he said about violence against people. He clearly and repeated distinguishes between people and property at that link. If that’s not enough for you, I think it’s because you’re approaching King’s words with preconceptions. > > You can disagree with King, sure; he’s not writing the Gospel. But to suggest he disapproved against destruction of property because he disapproved of violence against humans is to deeply misunderstand his stated beliefs. I disagree. I think it would be fair to say that King would not condemn the destruction of property in certain instances, but I also think it is fair to say that he would not condone it, either. Rather, he would emplore us to understand why violence against property was happening, and to understand that structural racism in society was worse than what he referred to as “petty larceny” in the quote that **LHOD** posted. That is different from saying he would approve of the destruction of property, and I’m comfortable aligning more or less with that attitude. But I think the more important point is the false dichotomy that you are either on the side of the protestors/vandals or you are on the side of the Confederate sympathizers (the post I was originally responding to in this side discussion about King). I’m on the side that eschews violence except as a last resort, and I don’t see either of those aforementioned sides as doing that. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/155 "2018-08-22T22:20:02Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I disagree. I think it would be fair to say that King would not condemn the destruction of property in certain instances, but I also think it is fair to say that he would not condone it, either. Rather, he would emplore us to understand why violence against property was happening, and to understand that structural racism in society was worse than what he referred to as “petty larceny” in the quote that **LHOD** posted. That is different from saying he would approve of the destruction of property, and I’m comfortable aligning more or less with that attitude. > > But I think the more important point is the false dichotomy that you are either on the side of the protestors/vandals or you are on the side of the Confederate sympathizers (the post I was originally responding to in this side discussion about King). I’m on the side that eschews violence except as a last resort, and I don’t see either of those aforementioned sides as doing that. I think it’s fair to predict that, if he were still alive, MLK Jr. would have been closer to the side of the ones who tore down the statue over the ones who lament the statue being torn down. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/156 "2018-08-22T22:36:02Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > What do you do if you are locked out of the political process? Those who are opposed to you hold power and see to it that your side cannot prevail. If that ever happens, I’ll be glad to discuss it with you. But of course describing Voter ID laws as being so onerous that one side “cannot prevail” is not remotely factual. Nor is gerrymandering, although I agree it can be used to impermissible effect. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2018, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/157 "2018-08-22T23:30:00Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If that ever happens, I’ll be glad to discuss it with you. WTF? Do you think that was the personal “you”? Of course it wasn’t. As the impersonal you, of course ONE gets locked out of the political process sometimes. You may think it doesn’t apply here, but your principles in this matter are pretty opaque, and it’s helpful to figure out what they are. If you agree that outlawry is appropriate when ONE is locked out of the political process and the outlawry is in response to an unjust law, then we may fairly debate whether in this case people have been locked out of the political process. But if you don’t agree on that point, that debate is pointless. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/158 "2018-08-23T00:03:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I think it’s fair to predict that, if he were still alive, MLK Jr. would have been closer to the side of the ones who tore down the statue over the ones who lament the statue being torn down. There is a difference between “lamenting” that the statue was torn down and wanting it to be taken down peacefully. Do you think King would have encouraged people to tear down the statue, offering to be the first guy to pull the rope? I don’t. I think he would understand why some people were inclined to do so, but he, himself, would not do it. He might organize a sit-in at the legislature or the area where the statue stood to bring attention to the issue. But I don’t see him committing even “petty larceny”, to use his own words. If you think that piece linked to by **LHOD** is King condoning and encouraged violence, you would have to believe that he condoned and encourage looting. That is inconceivable to me. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/159 "2018-08-23T00:15:17Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If you think that piece linked to by **LHOD** is King condoning and encouraged violence, you would have to believe that he condoned and encourage looting. That is inconceivable to me. You’ve moved the goalposts, though. Did he/would he CONDONE the destruction of property? Given how careful he is to distinguish between life, which is sacrosanct, and property, which is not; given how he refuses to condemn the far more pernicious crimes against property committed during riots; given his stand on peaceful and considered lawbreaking in LfaBJ; given all these positions, he absolutely condones such crimes. Adding “encouraged” to the mix is a moved goalpost. What is 100% certain is that, by writing most of your condemnatory words for those who pulled down the statue instead of those who erected and defended it, you stand nowhere near King. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [August 23, 2018, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960/160 "2018-08-23T00:33:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If that ever happens, I’ll be glad to discuss it with you. > > But of course describing Voter ID laws as being so onerous that one side “cannot prevail” is not remotely factual. Nor is gerrymandering, although I agree it can be used to impermissible effect. It has happened and continues to happen. The south has a long history of suppressing minority votes. So much so the US Justice department had to oversee changes in their election procedures. That is something the Supreme Court struck down in 2013 citing it as a relic and no longer needed. Southern states lost almost no time in re-engaging in voter suppression once that decision was handed down. As has been mentioned in this thread the last time North Carolina attempted voter suppression a federal appeals court struck it down noting it targeted African-American voters [“with almost surgical precision”](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/30/us/federal-appeals-court-strikes-down-north-carolina-voter-id-provision.html). Now the NC legislature is [back at it again.](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/15/us/north-carolina-voting-rights.html) Odd they would go to so much trouble to find as much voter suppression as they can manage that will get past a court if it does not work. Note they need not bar all political opponents from the system. They have to bar just enough to maintain control. Voter ID laws, voter purges, closing polling locations, changing early voting and so on all combine to sap political power from their opponents. If the NC legislature mirrored the political will of its citizens NC would probably have something much closer to a 50/50 split in their legislature. Voter suppression tips the balance enough for them to maintain their power which (IIRC) is somewhere around 35/65 (or so…can’t look it up right now). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silent-sam-is-down/819960.md?page=9)