# Silly Lord of the Rings Thoughts **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth\ **Created:** [July 9, 2023, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silly-lord-of-the-rings-thoughts/986810 "2023-07-09T11:34:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![furryman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/furryman/32/99_2.png) [@furryman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furryman)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2023, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silly-lord-of-the-rings-thoughts/986810/21 "2023-07-09T18:24:56Z")
“One does not simply walk into Mordor.” But the Southrons marched into Mordor. Maybe Gandalf’s plan was to disguise them as Southrons. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2023, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silly-lord-of-the-rings-thoughts/986810/22 "2023-07-09T18:46:33Z")
“One does not simply walk into Mordor.” Do you know how long it takes to get the visa? ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2023, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silly-lord-of-the-rings-thoughts/986810/23 "2023-07-09T19:04:07Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > What does the Rider of the Nazgul _do_ when he isn’t out threatening people? Does he remove the gnarly black armor and sit there, a sort of blue glow, hanging out with a goblet of wine? Surely there must be a Robot Chicken sketch about this? ---
**Author:** ![MacSpon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/34f0e0/32.png) [@MacSpon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacSpon)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2023, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silly-lord-of-the-rings-thoughts/986810/24 "2023-07-09T23:09:07Z")
> [@salinqmind1](#): > > This question reminds me of in the past when my little brother asked me ‘Where does Superman (Spiderman/Prince Namor/The Fantastic Four, etc.) go to the bathroom?’ I was damned if I knew, but said they probably find a McDonalds or a gas station - or they go into battle with their own personal port-a-potty somewhere nearby… Does Superman have to use a super-toilet (because otherwise he’d probably pee straight through the bowl…and also the wall behind it)? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Q](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/898d66/32.png) [@Johnny\_Q](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Q)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2023, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silly-lord-of-the-rings-thoughts/986810/25 "2023-07-10T06:46:52Z")
And does his teenage bedroom have a bunch of small holes above it? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2023, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silly-lord-of-the-rings-thoughts/986810/26 "2023-07-10T07:49:25Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > Not only for LOTR, but other fiction with a bad guy that wants to rule everything: > So Sauron gets his wish, destroys the race of man, becomes ruler of Middle Earth… now what? He just hangs out? Parties? Destroys more stuff just for kicks? How do bad guys spend their days after winning? Not to get political in CS, but that question might be well-put to several real-life autocrats I could think of. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2023, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silly-lord-of-the-rings-thoughts/986810/27 "2023-07-10T07:56:18Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Again, the horses of the Nazgul are actual horses. Not spirits or fiends. What about the fell-beasts that they rode when Sauron decided to convert them into an Air Force? Were they all immolated when their riders fireballed upon the destruction of the Ring? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2023, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silly-lord-of-the-rings-thoughts/986810/28 "2023-07-10T08:03:35Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > The idea does have precedent. In pre-revolutionary France, the royal bodyguard had two companies: The Gray Musketeers, who all rode gray horses, and the Black Musketeers, who all rode black horses. And the Three Musketeers, who all rode chocolate-covered horses. ---
**Author:** ![kferr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71e660/32.png) [@kferr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kferr)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2023, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silly-lord-of-the-rings-thoughts/986810/29 "2023-07-10T10:22:33Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > The Witch King did a vast amount around 1970 … So the Witch King is responsible for disco? ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2023, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silly-lord-of-the-rings-thoughts/986810/30 "2023-07-10T12:40:19Z")
This sounds like an Abbott and Costello skit… _The Witch King stabbed Frodo._ _Which king?_ _The Witch King._ _Right, which king?_ _The Witch King of Angmar._ _Which one?_ _The one that stabbed Frodo._ _Which one was that?!_ _The Witch King!_ _That’s what I am asking!_ ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2023, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silly-lord-of-the-rings-thoughts/986810/31 "2023-07-10T12:48:33Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > I’m sure that, somewhere in 70 years of comics, there’s a story that explains Supes poops and then uses superstrength to compress the waste into a micro ball, which he then tucks into a little pocket in the cape. Actually, he compresses it using superstrength first, then poops. The tiny pellets act as reaction mass for when he is flying. ---
**Author:** ![Dung\_Beetle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dung_beetle/32/7945_2.png) [@Dung\_Beetle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dung_Beetle)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2023, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silly-lord-of-the-rings-thoughts/986810/32 "2023-07-10T12:59:48Z")
> [@salinqmind1](#): > > ‘Where does Superman… go to the bathroom?’ Wherever he wants to, honey. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2023, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silly-lord-of-the-rings-thoughts/986810/33 "2023-07-10T13:19:46Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > Not only for LOTR, but other fiction with a bad guy that wants to rule everything: > So Sauron gets his wish, destroys the race of man, becomes ruler of Middle Earth… now what? He just hangs out? Parties? Destroys more stuff just for kicks? How do bad guys spend their days after winning? Sauron wanted power over Middle-Earth as a means to an end. As a maiar of Aulë, Sauron desired order above all else. The best way to do that, he thought, was to eliminate the elves and enslave the men. Sauron was Lawful Evil. I suppose, had he won the War of the Ring, his next step would have been to start imposing that order upon Middle-Earth. What then? Well, there’s always something that needs “fixing.” > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > But doesn’t their strength depend on Sauron himself? So during the long stretch after the Last Battle (which wasn’t), while Sauron was in sort of limbo, weren’t the Nazgul also weakened? That’s why at one point when Gandalf says that the Nine Riders have been seen, that is a measure of how Sauron has been regaining his strength. > > There’s also a passage somewhere about how the Nazgul are wearied from the centuries of their weird existence, but are slaves to Sauron and have no choice but to do his bidding. I had read an essay the other day that hypothesized that the Witch-King was one of the minor Istari that had come to Middle-Earth in the Second Age. It presented a pretty good argument as to why he was able to conquer Angmar and Arnon after Sauron had been defeated in the Last Alliance. I’ll see if I can find it. ---
**Author:** ![NinthAcolyte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ninthacolyte/32/13676_2.png) [@NinthAcolyte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinthAcolyte)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2023, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silly-lord-of-the-rings-thoughts/986810/34 "2023-07-10T13:20:04Z")
> [@Hampshire](#): > > So Sauron gets his wish, destroys the race of man, becomes ruler of Middle Earth… now what? He just hangs out? Parties? Destroys more stuff just for kicks? How do bad guys spend their days after winning? Well… This is necessarily speculative, but the “chief aim” of the “big evils” in the Legendarium is to usurp the creative music of Eru Illuvatar and sing their own twisted song. Melkor/Morgoth wishes to create - to sing worlds into being. His songs are corrupt, though, twisted by pride, envy, and (wilful) loneliness. The worlds he would create would be monstrous - “discordant,” in Tolkien’s musical-metaphysical language. As Morgoth works at the metaphysical, supernatural level of creation, so Sauron works at the magical and political level. Sauron is a lesser servant of Melkor/Morgoth as Gandalf is a lesser servant of Eru Illuvatar. I think we might be able to glean some insight into the postwar activities of a conquering Sauron by examining the peacetime activities of Gandalf - namely, lesser creative endeavors and the furthering of the aims of good. Gandalf wandered, met people, acted as diplomat, sang songs, and made fireworks - these are the good and productive creative works that are of _accord_ with the music of Illuvatar. Sauron’s role as politician, conqueror, and king suggests that his victory would come with the invention of terrible systems of rule - a supreme nightmare autocrat. His hubris implies that the dictatorial societies he created would be chiefly concerned with glorifying his name. Edit: Partially ninja’d! > [@Mollie\_Magill](#): > > I suppose, had he won the War of the Ring, his next step would have been to start imposing that order upon Middle-Earth. What then? Well, there’s always something that needs “fixing.” I agree entirely. (And this is a good illustration of Saruman’s essential error - his vision of an orderly “improved” world was closely aligned with Sauron/Morgoth’s from the get-go. As one of the Wise, he really should’ve noticed that. “That Hitler fella has it all wrong! My plan is much better. Hear me out: First we start eliminating undesirables, then we invade Poland…”) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2023, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silly-lord-of-the-rings-thoughts/986810/35 "2023-07-10T13:38:26Z")
> [@Mollie\_Magill](#): > > I had read an essay the other day that hypothesized that the Witch-King was one of the minor Istari that had come to Middle-Earth in the Second Age. It presented a pretty good argument as to why he was able to conquer Angmar and Arnon after Sauron had been defeated in the Last Alliance. I’ll see if I can find it. Interesting, but not exactly consistent with “Nine for mortal men doomed to die”. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2023, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silly-lord-of-the-rings-thoughts/986810/36 "2023-07-10T14:00:18Z")
> [@Mollie\_Magill](#): > > I suppose, had he won the War of the Ring, his next step would have been to start imposing that order upon Middle-Earth. What then? Well, there’s always something that needs “fixing.” Sauron would have never been satisfied or happy. People (or beings or whatever) like him never are. Something is always bothering them. And those they rule are even more miserable. My guess is that he’d be eternally crushing rebellion after rebellion, and/or playing one faction of orcs against another for one reason or another. Always testing their loyalties, punishing those who disappoint him, etc. Any sense of accomplishment he ever felt would only be temporary, until he started worrying about the next thing. He’s a perfectionist and perfection is impossible so he’d never stop. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2023, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silly-lord-of-the-rings-thoughts/986810/37 "2023-07-10T14:07:41Z")
It explains the extra power, but doesn’t fit anything else we know from the Ring Lore. What we know for sure, is Sauron gave 9 rings to mortal men. I’m almost certain though identity unknown, Tolkien mentioned he was already a powerful sorcerer before taking the ring. What is likely, is he was one of the 3 Númenórean Lords that accepted a Ring and fell under Sauron’s sway. **Quick Timeline of the Witch-king:** Ring of Power given out to men before **Second Age 2251** , the Rings were forged **SA 1600** but the Nazgûl first appeared **2251**. After Sauron’s defeat around 1200 years later, the Nazgûl disappeared for around a thousand years in the Third Age. _TA=Third Age_ **TA 1356** is when the Witch-king started his centuries long campaign to destroy Arnor. **TA 1409** is when his army destroyed Amon Sûl (Weathertop), shortly after this Cardolan fell. Around 1630-1650 he sent the wights to the Barrow-downs. **TA 1974** The Witch-king completed his destruction of the 3 kingdoms of Arnor. **TA 1975** King Eärnur of Gondor led a great host and an Elven army led by Glorfindel joined them. This combined force broke the Witch-king’s army. The Witch-king abandoned Angmar as Arnor was broken. Angmar itself soon fell apart. This was when the famous prophesy of Glorfindel was said, “_not by the hand of man shall he fall_ .” Around **TA 2000** the Nazgul’s under the Witch-king led an assault on Gondor and laid a 2 year siege on Minas Ithil. It fell and was known as Minas Morgul after that. **TA 2475** Osgiliath fell and the great bridge over the Anduin was destroyed. **TA 3019** On Pelennor Fields, The Witch -king delivered a mortal blow to King Théoden but fell when Meriadoc Brandbuck’s stabbed him from behind into the sinews of his knee. His blade was forged by the men of Arnor to break “the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will”. A sword given him out of the Barrows by Tom Bombadil. This all works with the great moment: > **Éowyn** : _Be gone, foul dwimmerlaik, lord of carrion! Leave the dead in peace!_ > **Nazgûl** : _Come not between the Nazgûl and his prey! Or he will not slay thee in thy turn. He will bear thee away to the houses of lamentation, beyond all darkness, where thy flesh shall be devoured, and thy shriveled mind be left naked to the Lidless Eye._ > **Éowyn** : _Do what you will, but I will hinder it, if I may._ > **Nazgûl** : _Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!_ > **Éowyn** : _But no living man am I! You look upon a woman. Éowyn I am, Eomund’s daughter. You stand between me and my lord and kin. Be gone, if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him._ **Éowyn** slew the foul beast (his flying mount) with a mighty stroke to its neck and the Witch-king rose up Merry stabbed. Then **Éowyn** finished him while he was distracted by stabbing him where his head should be. * * * * * * * * * So Arnor suffered a long slow defeat taking 600+ years and Gondor suffered its own decline over the last Millennium of the Third Age. The Witch-king was very involved in all of this. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2023, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silly-lord-of-the-rings-thoughts/986810/38 "2023-07-10T15:30:01Z")
The main gist of the argument was that the Witch King was described as “a renegade of his own order.” And Gandalf, Saruman, et al were called the chiefs of their order, implying there were other, lesser Istari. It was an interesting argument that I read yesterday on Quora, but damn if I can’t find it now. Personally, I agree with you that the Witch King was more likely a corrupted Númenórean lord. Did Tolkien ever tell us Ar -Pharazôn’s fate? He likely died during the destruction of Númenór, but I would think that Sauron would find a certain satisfaction to bending Ar -Pharazôn to his will. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2023, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silly-lord-of-the-rings-thoughts/986810/39 "2023-07-10T15:35:55Z")
Too late on Ar-Pharazôn, he was born after the Ring Wraiths had already appeared. He died upon his fleet reaching the Undying Lands in SA 3319. He and all his fleet were destroyed and then Númenor itself drown beneath the waves. It was also this event that removed the Undying Lands from the world. Only Elves and Maia could now take the old straight way to the Undying Lands. I did find this in doublechecking my work: > Ar-Pharazôn and his mighty host who landed on Aman were buried by mounds of dirt and remain in the [Caves of the Forgotten](https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Caves_of_the_Forgotten) until the last battle, or [Dagor Dagorath](https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Dagor_Dagorath). So very dead not undead, but not in the sea. ---
**Author:** ![frognot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frognot/32/8752_2.png) [@frognot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/frognot)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2023, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silly-lord-of-the-rings-thoughts/986810/40 "2023-07-10T15:48:12Z")
Also play LOTRO (but not as often lately). Presently on Arkenstone. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silly-lord-of-the-rings-thoughts/986810.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silly-lord-of-the-rings-thoughts/986810.md?page=3)