# Silly Lord of the Rings Thoughts **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth\ **Created:** [July 9, 2023, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silly-lord-of-the-rings-thoughts/986810 "2023-07-09T11:34:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2023, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silly-lord-of-the-rings-thoughts/986810/61 "2023-07-15T14:06:51Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Those who failed didn’t just die, they became nothing, empty. For me, I think it worked. It’s why I’m a fan. And the fleshier villains of the story (that weren’t just plain old monsters) were those sliding toward becoming wraiths someday. Folks like Saruman, Denethor, Gollum, or Grima. They were tragedies. It also meant that anyone could face down the villains. Farmer Maggot wouldn’t have stood a chance against a real, physical master swordsman, or an army of orcs, or whatever… but he could and did say “No, you’re not getting in here or harming my family and guests” to a Nazgul. Because all the Nazgul had, all it was, was fear, and fear can be faced. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2023, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silly-lord-of-the-rings-thoughts/986810/62 "2023-07-15T14:26:43Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Because all the Nazgul had, all it was, was fear As opposed to the Spanish Inquisition, which has _two_ chief weapons: fear and surprise… and ruthless efficiency… ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2023, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silly-lord-of-the-rings-thoughts/986810/63 "2023-07-15T15:00:06Z")
I wasn’t expecting that. ---
**Author:** ![Mars\_Horizon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mars_horizon/32/2804_2.png) [@Mars\_Horizon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mars_Horizon)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2023, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silly-lord-of-the-rings-thoughts/986810/64 "2023-07-17T02:07:38Z")
No one does ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2023, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silly-lord-of-the-rings-thoughts/986810/65 "2023-07-17T10:08:10Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Because all the Nazgul had, all it was, was fear It wasn’t _fear_ that was worming its way to Frodo’s heart. They very much had real weapons too. The Riders weren’t unphysical. Just invisible. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2023, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silly-lord-of-the-rings-thoughts/986810/66 "2023-07-17T10:47:49Z")
One of the things I like best about Tolkien’s books is when he throws in stuff that never gets explained. Like Beorn from the Hobbit. What was he? What weird things can out of the Forrest that caused hobbits in Buckland to lock their doors? Where did Wargs come from? I know a lot of it would never be mentioned again so much and Tolkien often changed things. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2023, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silly-lord-of-the-rings-thoughts/986810/67 "2023-07-17T11:27:09Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Not to mention that they’re all basically ghosts of a sort. Every one of them is literally a shadow of their former selves, completely devoid of substance. I like your analysis, but as a nitpick, I thought the Nazgûl were some kind of quasi-corporeal beings. That’s why a hobbit could stick a shiv in one, or they could ride horses. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2023, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silly-lord-of-the-rings-thoughts/986810/68 "2023-07-17T11:35:45Z")
It is a little complicated. The were basically spirits that clothed themselves in robes & armor. They had physical weapons. They were less powerful in daylight and could see only shadows. The inhabited a Wraith World more than Middle-Earth. Frodo with the Ring on could see their form as could apparently the Elves of the Light like Glorfindel or Galadriel. Indeed, the Nazgul generally fled from his light. * * * > [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > Where did Wargs come from? Wargs were clearly related to the huge Werewolves of Morgoth. Note: Not shape-changers, just huge, evil and intelligent I also always like the fully sentient Fox that inhabited the Shire and was curious about the Hobbits sleeping under the stars when they left Hobbiton. Clearly a left-over from when the LoTR was still a sequel to the Hobbit in similar style and before the Professor went full on Epic story-telling. > “Hobbits! Well, what’s next? I have heard of strange doings in this land, but I have seldom heard of a hobbit sleeping out of doors under a tree. Three of them! There’s something might queer behind this.” My question is how did Frodo or Sam find out about this Fox’s thoughts to record them in the Red Book? ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2023, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silly-lord-of-the-rings-thoughts/986810/69 "2023-07-17T12:17:42Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > My question is how did Frodo or Sam find out about this Fox’s thoughts to record them in the Red Book? It reminds me of the thrush that tells Bard about Smaug’s weakness. Just imagining Bilbo quizzing him about the bird-talk. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2023, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silly-lord-of-the-rings-thoughts/986810/70 "2023-07-17T12:28:48Z")
_There and Back Again_ better known as _The Hobbit_ had a somewhat unreliable narrator. Bilbo recorded the story but was also entertaining his nieces and nephews with the story. So some embellishment and guesses were recorded I believe. It was Frodo that corrected the Riddles in the Dark chapter. Bilbo recorded it quite differently. That Thrush was quite smart though, wasn’t it. It knew to look for Bard to let him know the weak point in Smaug’s armor. It also went a got Roäc son of Carc to speak to Thorin. That Thrush really seem to want to support the Dwarves. Perhaps it was a servant of Vána. Song Birds were pretty much one of her things, though Dwarves not so much. I get the wanting the Dragon dead part. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2023, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silly-lord-of-the-rings-thoughts/986810/71 "2023-07-17T12:45:06Z")
And ravens = good, crows - bad. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2023, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silly-lord-of-the-rings-thoughts/986810/72 "2023-07-17T12:54:05Z")
To be fair, Crebain were larger than normal, evil crows. So not all crows. But Ravens = Good for sure. Gandalf is at least partly inspired by Odin the Wanderer , so that fits. Huginn and Muninn the Ravens are 2 of Odin’s 3 animals. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2023, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silly-lord-of-the-rings-thoughts/986810/73 "2023-07-17T13:29:00Z")
Odin’s 3 and a half animals, surely? ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2023, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silly-lord-of-the-rings-thoughts/986810/74 "2023-07-17T13:34:02Z")
Are you counting Sleipnir as 1½ or did I miss half an animal? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2023, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silly-lord-of-the-rings-thoughts/986810/75 "2023-07-17T13:45:48Z")
Top half of one horse, bottom halves of two horses. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2023, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silly-lord-of-the-rings-thoughts/986810/76 "2023-07-17T15:05:56Z")
He also had two wolves, Freki and Geri. ---
**Author:** ![Capn\_Carl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Capn\_Carl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capn_Carl)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2023, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silly-lord-of-the-rings-thoughts/986810/77 "2023-07-18T01:24:59Z")
My silly LotR thought: Gandalf and Durin’s Bane (the Balrog) must have known each other. As Ainu, they helped create the universe, then lived in Valinor for some time. Maybe they hung out together. Maybe they made fun of that pompous ass Sauron. Sometimes they’d see whose spell could control a door; the loser had to ask boring-as-f\*\*k Aule how his dwarf project was going. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2023, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silly-lord-of-the-rings-thoughts/986810/78 "2023-07-18T10:34:30Z")
There used to be a very funny site called “[Sauron’s Blog](http://saurongorthaur.blogspot.com/2006/08/1-im-really-getting-tired-of-singing.html?m=1)”, written from his POV. This is the best link to it could find, but feel free to hunt down a better one. I think the writer just lost interest. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2023, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silly-lord-of-the-rings-thoughts/986810/79 "2023-07-18T19:36:20Z")
> [@Capn\_Carl](#): > > As Ainu, they helped create the universe, then lived in Valinor for some time. Maybe they hung out together. Maybe, maybe not. The Maiar served particular Valar at times, so they might not have interacted, as I suspect they would have had very different duties. Supposedly the Balrogs were fire beings even as Maiar, and while Melkor corrupted them over to his side, their basic nature was still similar. They went over to Melkor’s side pretty early on, when the Two Trees were still around, though they didn’t participate in the destruction of the trees (Melkor had help from the giant spider Ungoliant for that). If Gandalf knew Durin’s Bane, it would have been a long time before, long before even the First Age began. But I get the feeling they would have moved in different social circles in Valinor even back then. Now, Sauron served the smith Aule, and I wouldn’t be surprised if he worked with the Balrogs at the forges. Plus, Aule and Melkor were bitter rivals, and just as Melkor poached Sauron (originally named Mairon) from Aule, he probably enjoyed doing the same with the Balrogs. (My own pet theory here.) ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2023, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silly-lord-of-the-rings-thoughts/986810/80 "2023-07-18T19:40:55Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Maybe, maybe not. The Maiar served particular Valar at times, so they might not have interacted, as I suspect they would have had very different duties. Supposedly the Balrogs were fire beings even as Maiar, and while Melkor corrupted them over to his side, their basic nature was still similar. They went over to Melkor’s side pretty early on, when the Two Trees were still around, though they didn’t participate in the destruction of the trees (Melkor had help from the giant spider Ungoliant for that). If Gandalf knew Durin’s Bane, it would have been a long time before, long before even the First Age began. But I get the feeling they would have moved in different social circles in Valinor even back then. As I recall, only one Fire Spirit did not follow Melkor, and that one became the Sun. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silly-lord-of-the-rings-thoughts/986810.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/silly-lord-of-the-rings-thoughts/986810.md?page=5)