# Similiarities to Jesus - very misguided? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 2013, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/similiarities-to-jesus-very-misguided/672533 "2013-10-29T06:57:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/similiarities-to-jesus-very-misguided/672533/1 "2013-10-29T06:57:23Z")
From the 2007 movie “Zeitgeist”: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/f9Tc9C-MsMk/hqdefault.jpg "The Many Messiahs and Saviors BEFORE Jesus Christ's Supposed "Life"") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9Tc9C-MsMk) Transcript: [http://truth11.com/2009/03/19/zeitgeist-movie-transcript/](http://truth11.com/2009/03/19/zeitgeist-movie-transcript/) > [@](#): > > Broadly speaking, the story of Horus is as follows: Horus was born on December 25th [S14] [S15] of the virgin Isis-Meri.[S16] [S17] [S18] [D] [M] His birth was accompanied by a star in the east [S19], which in turn, three kings followed to locate and adorn the new-born savior [M] [S20] [S21] At the age of 12, he was a prodigal child teacher, and at the age of 30 [S22] [S23] he was baptized by a figure known as Anup [M] and thus began his ministry[S24] [M]. Horus had 12 disciples[S25] he traveled about with, performing miracles[S26] [S27]such as healing the sick[S28] and walking on water[S29]. Horus was known by many gestural names such as The Truth, The Light, God’s Annointed Son, The Good Shepherd, The Lamb of God, and many others[S30] [S31]. After being betrayed by Typhon[S32], Horus was crucified[S33] [S34], buried for 3 days[S35], and thus, resurrected.[S36] [S37] [M]. https://www.youtube.com/embed/CqQCXCfU2Gk?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque&start=139 The claims about Horus apparently originated from “self-educated Egyptologist” Gerald Massey. > **[Gerald Massey](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Massey#Claimed_parallels_between_Horus_and_Jesus)** > > Gerald Massey (/ˈmæsi/; 29 May 1828 – 29 October 1907) was an English poet and writer on Spiritualism and Ancient Egypt. > Massey was born near Tring, Hertfordshire in England to poor parents. When little more than a child, he was made to work hard in a silk factory, which he afterward deserted for the equally laborious occupation of straw plaiting. These early years were rendered gloomy by much distress and deprivation, against which the young man strove with increasing spirit and virility, e... > [@](#): > > …One of the more sensational aspects of Massey’s writings were the parallels he drew between Jesus and the Egyptian god Horus > > …Christian Theologian W. Ward Gasque, a Ph.D from Harvard and Manchester University sent emails to twenty Egyptologists that he considered leaders of the field… > > …Ten out of twenty responded. Those who responded were unanimous in dismissing the proposed etymologies for Jesus and Christ, and one unspecified Egyptologist referred to Alvin Boyd Kuhn’s comparison as “fringe nonsense.” Another popular film that included this kind of thing is Bill Maher’s “Religulous” > [@](#): > > (53:41) …We’ve got Krishna who was in lndia > 1,000 years before Christ. Krishna was a carpenter, > born of a virgin, baptized in a river. > Are you saying that was written in history? > That was written down in history, is that what you’re saying? > Absolutely, there’s the Persian god Mithra, 600 years before Christ. > Born December 25th, performed miracles, > resurrected on the third day, > known as the Lamb, the Way, the Truth, the Light, the Savior, Messiah… [http://thedevineevidence.com/jesus\_similarities.html](http://thedevineevidence.com/jesus_similarities.html) Krishna: > [@](#): > > …CARPENTER FATHERS Like Jesus’ earthly father, Krishna’s father was also said to be a carpenter. Yet nowhere in the Hindu texts does it say Vasudeva was a carpenter. > > A VIRGIN BIRTH A virgin birth is never attributed to Krishna as his parents bore seven previous children > > There have been many religions throughout history whose members participated in ritual baths but it was not baptism Mithra: > [@](#): > > DECEMBER BIRTH Many religious festivals were consolidated into one holiday to coincide with the winter solstice. Christmas is only celebrated on December 25th due to this tradition. This argument already proves to be insignificant as there is nothing in the Scriptures which mentions this date. > > stating the obvious list: > 6. Mithras performed miraculous deeds > > [“resurrected on the third day”] > CRUCIFIXION Though critics claim Mithras was crucified, there is no mention of this in the reliefs or texts. In fact no death is associated with Mithras, nevertheless crucifixion. We are told he completes his earthly mission then is taken to paradise in a chariot- alive and well. > > SIMILAR TITLES I did find some similarities but the claims critics make seem to be manipulated from their original form- there were no exact matches to the names critics list. I also listed other titles that are often cited but prove to be incorrect: > > Lamb of God, Good Shepherd. Skeptics try to use the depiction of Mithras holding the sacrificed bull over his shoulders as evidence but this is absurd as the bull is slaughtered! Furthermore, the Old Testament references lambs and shepherds long before Mithraism ever surfaced. > > The Way Truth and Light, Light of the World. Though the names are not an exact match I did find warrior angel of light but this is associated with the Iranian Mithras- not the Roman Mithras of Mithraism. > > Savior, Redeemer, Messiah. Mithras is never referred to any of these. Why would he be since he never served such a purpose? Messiah is also a Hebrew word which makes one wonder what the source is for this allegation. I am an agnostic and a pastor was asking me why I think Jesus is a legend and then I did a bit of research into beliefs like in that first youtube video. I’m pretty disappointed in atheists that keep repeating that stuff since it seems to be very misleading or untrue. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/similiarities-to-jesus-very-misguided/672533/2 "2013-10-29T09:00:21Z")
Personally, I’d pretty much discount anything said by someone who said their claim was “written down in history”. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/similiarities-to-jesus-very-misguided/672533/3 "2013-10-29T11:16:51Z")
Atheists are capable of making as stupid an argument as any believer. Film at 11. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/similiarities-to-jesus-very-misguided/672533/4 "2013-10-29T12:14:09Z")
Every Egyptologist was self-educated in Massey’s time. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/similiarities-to-jesus-very-misguided/672533/5 "2013-10-29T12:23:39Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Atheists are capable of making as stupid an argument as any believer. Film at 11. Exactly. Plus there are misconceptions. For instance, to my knowledge, the whole virgin birth thing was due to a misappropriation of a passage in the Old Testament. Now, if you take away the ‘virgin’ aspect, then yes, Jesus’s birth was pretty much the same as a whole bunch of mythical figures (even with the virgin aspect there are similarities). Early Christians even admitted this: From [here](http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-dialoguetrypho.html): > [@](#): > > And Trypho answered, “The Scripture has not, ‘Behold, the virgin shall conceive, and bear a son,’ but, ‘Behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son,’ and so on, as you quoted. But the whole prophecy refers to Hezekiah, and it is proved that it was fulfilled in him, according to the terms of this prophecy. **Moreover, in the fables of those who are called Greeks, it is written that Perseus was begotten of Danae, who was a virgin; he who was called among them Zeus having descended on her in the form of a golden shower. And you ought to feel ashamed when you make assertions similar to theirs, and rather[should] say that this Jesus was born man of men.** And if you prove from the Scriptures that He is the Christ, and that on account of having led a life conformed to the law, and perfect, He deserved the honour of being elected to be Christ,[it is well]; but do not venture to tell monstrous phenomena, lest you be convicted of talking foolishly like the Greeks.” ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/similiarities-to-jesus-very-misguided/672533/6 "2013-10-29T13:22:36Z")
Personally, I am not impressed at all with the “arguments” that Jesus’ chroniclers cribbed His powers and abilities from other mythological figures. I understand a new book is coming out which deal with the historicity of Jesus, which may explain the recent uptick in threads about this. I actually see no reason to doubt that the Christian religion is built on the teachings of an actual preacher, or that additional myth and legends adhered to his legacy by subsequent generations of followers. It seems the “debunkers” who point out the parallels between Christian mythology and/or iconography and other faiths are coming from a very fundamentalist approach. That is, they seem to feel that if they discredit some random details then the entire construction will collapse. While this may be a useful way to argue with actual Fundamentalists, as it helps them begin to think for themselves and recognize that historical accuracy is no way to assess the “truth” of a religion, I would think that a self-described agnostic would understand that similarities in myth cycles only show a common cultural response to the existential questions addressed by religions. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/similiarities-to-jesus-very-misguided/672533/7 "2013-10-29T14:57:07Z")
> [@JohnClay](#): > > I am an agnostic and a pastor was asking me why I think Jesus is a legend and then I did a bit of research into beliefs like in that first youtube video. I’m pretty disappointed in atheists that keep repeating that stuff since it seems to be very misleading or untrue. If you consider all the men whose names and teachings are older than 1000 years and still being taught today you will find they mostly taught or wrote about life. How to treat others; how to live life; what is really important in relationships, etc. Furthermore, all these men tend to say similar things about life. What Jesus taught was not new material and I believe most people know that. So the reason these sayings have lived over 1000 years is that they are beneficial to all people. However the benefit comes only when one decides to follow the teachings, otherwise the teachings are meaningless… ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2013, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/similiarities-to-jesus-very-misguided/672533/8 "2013-10-29T15:04:33Z")
Yes, it’s all nonsense. Basic parts of the Jesus story (or more modern additions thereunto, like the date December 25th) are just added willy-nilly to whatever other God might currently be trendy, with no attention paid to what the ancient sources say. Seems to me to be mostly a New Age or neo-pagan thing, rather than something the Atheists do. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/similiarities-to-jesus-very-misguided/672533/9 "2013-11-02T19:34:22Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Every Egyptologist was self-educated in Massey’s time. Ah yes, the mid-nineteenth century, before schools or universities or any of that sort of modern stuff had been invented.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![deltasigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e5b9ba/32.png) [@deltasigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deltasigma)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/similiarities-to-jesus-very-misguided/672533/10 "2013-11-02T20:09:44Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Ah yes, the mid-nineteenth century, before schools or universities or any of that sort of modern stuff had been invented.:rolleyes: They had been around for a while but [the Rosetta stone wasn’t discovered until 1799](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosetta_Stone) and even after it had been, it was quite a while before the hieroglyphs could be reliably translated. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2013, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/similiarities-to-jesus-very-misguided/672533/11 "2013-11-02T21:49:50Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Ah yes, the mid-nineteenth century, before schools or universities or any of that sort of modern stuff had been invented.:rolleyes: There was nothing about Egypt being taught in schools and universities other than historical accounts until the French invaded in 1809. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/similiarities-to-jesus-very-misguided/672533/12 "2013-11-03T03:59:41Z")
Agreed; until Champollion’s — and others’ — work in decipherment, and until Layard’s diggings in the Middle East there wasn’t any great need for Departments of Oriental Studies as they would have devolved into religious wrangling depots — and even in the middle of the century very few people would have the latest information on the subject fit enough to expound on it in lectures. And Massey himself, who was rather an odd duck, although a brilliant one, could not have attended those if they existed: \*Born in a hovel at Gamnel Wharf, Tring, on 29th May 1828, (THOMAS) GERALD MASSEY was the eldest son of an impoverished and illiterate canal-boatman. Massey said of himself that ‘he had no childhood,’ for on reaching the age of eight he was put to work in the Town’s silk mill where his twelve-hour days spent labouring in grim conditions added between nine pence and one shilling and three pence to his father’s meagre earnings. He later worked in Tring’s then-thriving straw plaiting industry producing braid for the straw hat trade in nearby Luton and Dunstable. Thanks to his mother, Mary, Massey received a scant education at a “penny school”. Despite these tough beginnings, he learned to read and write using the Bible, Bunyan, Robinson Crusoe and Wesleyan tracts left at the family home. \* **[Gerald Massey . co. uk](http://gerald-massey.org.uk/massey/)** He deserves all the more credit for being self-educated to such an incredible level. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/similiarities-to-jesus-very-misguided/672533/13 "2013-11-03T04:50:16Z")
[The Word of a God among men](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/3054/was-jesus-copied-from-the-egyptian-god-horus). Any suggestion that he is synonymous with Ed Zotti is heretical. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2013, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/similiarities-to-jesus-very-misguided/672533/14 "2013-11-03T16:03:36Z")
> [@blindboyard](#): > > Yes, it’s all nonsense. Basic parts of the Jesus story (or more modern additions thereunto, like the date December 25th) are just added willy-nilly to whatever other God might currently be trendy, with no attention paid to what the ancient sources say. Seems to me to be mostly a New Age or neo-pagan thing, rather than something the Atheists do. Massey - like Dupuis, Higgins, de Volney, Taylor and other self-taught 19th century “gentleman amateurs” - seem to be popular both with New Age types _and_ with Zeitgeist-style atheists. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/similiarities-to-jesus-very-misguided/672533/15 "2013-11-12T02:08:32Z")
I was raised Hindu, and I’ve never heard anything about Krishna being a carpenter (or a virgin birth, for that matter)… The only Google hits for “Krishna carpenter” are references to the hypothesized similarity of Krishna and Jesus. I call shenanigans. ETA: Whoops, I read too fast. This is addressed in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2013, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/similiarities-to-jesus-very-misguided/672533/16 "2013-11-13T13:16:47Z")
> [@JohnClay](#): > > From the 2007 movie “Zeitgeist”: > [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9Tc9C-MsMk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9Tc9C-MsMk) > > Transcript: > [http://truth11.com/2009/03/19/zeitgeist-movie-transcript/](http://truth11.com/2009/03/19/zeitgeist-movie-transcript/) > [http://youtu.be/CqQCXCfU2Gk?t=2m19s](http://youtu.be/CqQCXCfU2Gk?t=2m19s) > The claims about Horus apparently originated from “self-educated Egyptologist” Gerald Massey. > [Gerald Massey - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Massey#Claimed_parallels_between_Horus_and_Jesus) > > Another popular film that included this kind of thing is Bill Maher’s “Religulous” > [http://thedevineevidence.com/jesus\_similarities.html](http://thedevineevidence.com/jesus_similarities.html) > Krishna: > Mithra: > I am an agnostic and a pastor was asking me why I think Jesus is a legend and then I did a bit of research into beliefs like in that first youtube video. I’m pretty disappointed in atheists that keep repeating that stuff since it seems to be very misleading or untrue. Read Osiris and the Egyptian Resurrection 2 volumes, and see how close to the telling of Jesus life was close to Osiris who was pre -Dynasty times. He was called the good shepherd, god, and son of god. He also resurrected after being cut to pieces ,then Isis his sister wife collected the parts, but couldn’t find the penis, so she took the form of a dove flew over him and conceived Horus! ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2013, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/similiarities-to-jesus-very-misguided/672533/17 "2013-11-13T13:52:06Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > He also resurrected after being cut to pieces ,then Isis his sister wife collected the parts, but couldn’t find the penis, so she took the form of a dove flew over him and conceived Horus! Why, the similarities are positively uncanny! I am convinced! ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/similiarities-to-jesus-very-misguided/672533/18 "2013-11-14T12:53:25Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > Why, the similarities are positively uncanny! I am convinced! I feel you are being sarcastic, and That is your right. But the book is just as much the word of God as any thing called God’s word. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/similiarities-to-jesus-very-misguided/672533/19 "2013-11-14T12:57:58Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > I feel you are being sarcastic, and That is your right. But the book is just as much the word of God as any thing called God’s word. Yeah, I’m being sarcastic. If Jesus was cut to pieces post-crucifixion, had a sister named Isis who collected the parts but couldn’t find the penis, took the form of a dove, flew over him and conceived Horus, well, the gospels fail to mention it. > [@monavis](#): > > But the book is just as much the word of God as any thing called God’s word. I have no idea what you’re getting at here. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/similiarities-to-jesus-very-misguided/672533/20 "2013-11-14T13:21:49Z")
> [@Steken](#): > > I have no idea what you’re getting at here. And I have no idea what you are getting at with your sarcasm. Do you only accept similarities if they are repeated verbatim across the myths? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/similiarities-to-jesus-very-misguided/672533.md?page=2)