Similiarities to Jesus - very misguided?

[monavis]

@Dissonance

Nice try at the Gish Gallop. This is most emphatically not what you said before, as everyone can plainly see. You said:and which is unadulterated horseshit. As I said, the ancient Egyptian pantheon had a great many gods; Horus was the son of a god and a goddess and was thus unsurprisingly a god himself. Horus was not considered God and the son of God the way Jesus is in Christianity, and claiming so is utter nonsense. Again, Heracles has a closer, but still weak, parallel in that he was the son of the head of the Greek gods and a mortal woman.

It wasn’t Horus, but Osiris that had been called many of the same things Jesus had said, or did. Because you apparently have not read the 2 volumes how can you know? If you read John 10 you will see that Jesus never claims to be God any more than the people to whom he was speaking. He reminded them that the Psalmist wrote they were gods. If one looks through History most religions gods were not thought of as people do today

[Steken]

@monavis

It wasn’t Horus, but Osiris that had been called many of the same things Jesus had said, or did.

Like what?

[Dissonance]

@monavis

It wasn’t Horus, but Osiris that had been called many of the same things Jesus had said, or did.

So now Osiris was called God and the son of God, like Jesus? Ah, no, as has been pointed out to you many times the Egyptian pantheon had a great many gods (note the lower case g). Osiris was a god, and he happened to be the son of the god Geb and the goddess Nut, who also happened to sire the goddess Isis, Osiris’ sister and wife. Unless you’re now saying the Christian God had a mother and father and married his sister, you’re still wrong. Keep galloping away though, if you dish out enough shit something might stick.

@monavis

Because you apparently have not read the 2 volumes how can you know?

Tell you what, rather than expecting me and others to read a 900 page 2 volumework blindly looking for your absurd claims, perhaps you could just cite the appropriate passages like a normal person would. That would be how I could know.

[Steken]

No offense, monavis, but I gotta ask – have you actually read that book in its entirety?

[monavis]

@Steken

No offense, monavis, but I gotta ask – have you actually read that book in its entirety?

Yes, and it is 2 volumes. Osiris was called God and Son of God, the Good shepherd. He walked on water, Read the book your self. I got it years ago in DC n one of the museums Osiris was resurrected even after he was cut to pieces.

The way Jesus was said to resurrect was different but he had come back from the dead. I can look up more passages but the story of Jesus wasn’t much different than other myths. Of course all the details of Jesus were not all from one myth but from several. There are also contradictions of quotes Jesus has been said to have said in the NT. some people only take the things they agree on. That is their right to believe as they wish but if one thinks about what is read they can see it can’t be two ways. Most Christians believe Jesus came to save the world, but Jesus is quoted as saying he only came for the lost sheep of Israel, and spoke in parables so some wouldn’t understand and be saved!

[monavis]

@Dissonance

So now Osiris was called God and the son of God, like Jesus? Ah, no, as has been pointed out to you many times the Egyptian pantheon had a great many gods (note the lower case g). Osiris was a god, and he happened to be the son of the god Geb and the goddess Nut, who also happened to sire the goddess Isis, Osiris’ sister and wife. Unless you’re now saying the Christian God had a mother and father and married his sister, you’re still wrong. Keep galloping away though, if you dish out enough shit something might stick.

Tell you what, rather than expecting me and others to read a 900 page 2 volumework blindly looking for your absurd claims, perhaps you could just cite the appropriate passages like a normal person would. That would be how I could know.

Jut to add Osiris was many years before the Dynasty time. It was during the dynasty time Pharaohs claimed to be gods. and even the psalmist wrote “I said you are gods” , It would seem that the word God meant a person or thing of power, not as people look at the word today. and they didn’t think of themselves as creators of the world etc. like the word is today.

[Steken]

@monavis

Osiris was called God and Son of God, the Good shepherd. He walked on water

OK, let’s focus on this specific claim, beginning with a cite for the claim that Osiris was ever said to have “walked on water.”

[deltasigma]

@monavis

The way Jesus was said to resurrect was different but he had come back from the dead. I can look up more passages but the story of Jesus wasn’t much different than other myths. Of course all the details of Jesus were not all from one myth but from several. There are also contradictions of quotes Jesus has been said to have said in the NT. some people only take the things they agree on. That is their right to believe as they wish but if one thinks about what is read they can see it can’t be two ways. Most Christians believe Jesus came to save the world, but Jesus is quoted as saying he only came for the lost sheep of Israel, and spoke in parables so some wouldn’t understand and be saved!

In traditional Christian theology, Jesus is the sacrificial lamb. Just like sacrifices used to be made to Yahweh at the temple in Jerusalem, Jesus was the final sacrifice that created the new covenant. He was sacrificed for the sins of the world so that all people would become god’s chosen, not just the people of Israel. This has no relationship whatsoever to anything in Egyptian mythology except possibly the idea of sacrifice.

As I’ve already pointed out, resurrection myths are a dime a dozen. That is not the central issue is Jesus’ story. The central issue is redemption, salvation - or have you never met a fundamentalist Christian?

Now you can claim that this was not what Jesus originally intended. You can make all sorts of arguments, as the gnostics did that there was a secret knowledge he conveyed to only a few and that traditional Christianity has it all wrong. Good luck with that because the early church was quite thorough in purging anything that it felt smacked of heresy. And while 2000 years later we now have access to a lot of gnostic sources, it’s pretty much universally agreed that with only a few possible exceptions, all of these date from the second and third centuries - probably at the earliest.

[Dissonance]

@monavis

Jut to add Osiris was many years before the Dynasty time. It was during the dynasty time Pharaohs claimed to be gods. and even the psalmist wrote “I said you are gods” , It would seem that the word God meant a person or thing of power, not as people look at the word today. and they didn’t think of themselves as creators of the world etc. like the word is today.

Nice gallop. What do the Pharaohs claiming to be gods during Dynastic times have to do with anything at all, much less your equating Osiris with Jesus and thus being the origin of the story/myth of Jesus? I couldn’t help but notice you completely ignored this part, even though you quoted it:

@me

Tell you what, rather than expecting me and others to read a 900 page 2 volumework blindly looking for your absurd claims, perhaps you could just cite the appropriate passages like a normal person would. That would be how I could know.

So I take it that’s a no, you can’t actually cite appropriate passages. The only conclusions as to why that pop to mind are that they don’t exist, or they don’t say what you claim they say, or you haven’t actually read the books.

@Steken

OK, let’s focus on this specific claim, beginning with a cite for the claim that Osiris was ever said to have “walked on water.”

Good luck with that, it seems “Read the book your self”[sic] is what monavis considers a cite.

[tomndebb]

@monavis

. . . but Jesus is quoted as saying he only came for the lost sheep of Israel, and spoke in parables so some wouldn’t understand and be saved!

You have already been corrected on this claim, here, and here.

It is disappointing to see you repeating errors that have been corrected–it makes your posts look even more like a Gish Gallop.

[Trinopus]

@monavis

. . . Most Christians believe Jesus came to save the world, but Jesus is quoted as saying he only came for the lost sheep of Israel, and spoke in parables so some wouldn’t understand and be saved!

@tomndebb

You have already been corrected on this claim . . .

It is disappointing to see you repeating errors that have been corrected–it makes your posts look even more like a Gish Gallop.

But…the Bible does say at least part of what monavis just said.

He said to them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those outside, everything is in parables, so that although they look they may look but not see, and although they hear they may hear but not understand, so they may not repent and be forgiven.” -Mark 4:11-12

The bit about the lost sheep of Israel may not be correct, but the part about speaking in parables to deny salvation to at least some of “those outside” appears to be right in the text.

[deltasigma]

Except it’s not really a secret any more than it’s a miracle for a wealthy man to enter the kingdom of heaven. But you have that analogy or parable or whatever about it being easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for the wealthy to enter the kingdom of god.

At least that’s the traditional view. But that’s not to say that you can’t find support for that argument, especially in a gospel like John that’s generally recognized as probably having at least some gnostic influences.

[Steken]

Let’s not get sidetracked here. This thread is not about Jesus’ message per se, but about supposed similarities between Jesus and other gods.

So, monavis.

Next time you post in this thread, bring a cite for the claim that Osiris “walked on water.”

Tell you what, just crack open your copy of Osiris and the Egyptian Resurrection right now, and check the index for “walking on water.” Let me know how many there are, and if any of them refer to Osiris having ever been said to have “walked on water,” as you have claimed.

[deltasigma]

True. And I don’t really like bringing up Christian theology, but what else are you going to fall back on when you’re talking about comparisons? Not only do we have little to no reliable information in the way non-Christian sources for what Jesus said, who he claimed to be, etc. but even the Christian sources can be ambiguous when taken on their face. The best you can really do is go with what is generally recognized as mainstream church dogma from the days of the early church. At least that seems to be the least objectionable path but I’m certainly open to alternatives.

[thepillar]

@Dissonance

Tell you what, rather than expecting me and others to read a 900 page 2 volumework blindly looking for your absurd claims, perhaps you could just cite the appropriate passages like a normal person would. That would be how I could know.

The central figure of the ancient Egyptian Religion was Osiris, and the chief fundamentals of his cult were the belief in his divinity, death, resurrection, and absolute control of the destinies of the bodies and souls of men. The central point of each Osirian’s Religion was his hope of resurrection in a transformed body and of immortality, which could only be realized by him through the death and resurrection of Osiris.

–Osiris and the Egyptian Resurrection, E.A. Wallis Budge

If you could substitute Jesus for Osiris and Christianity for Egyptian/Osirian’s Religion in the cited passage, you would then understand what the OP is trying to say.

[Steken]

Hey, monavis, what if I told you that Osiris and the Egyptian Resurrection has no more than one single reference to “walking on water” listed in its index – and that it sure as hell ain’t Osiris who is doing the walking? But instead Bessarion and Petarpemotis, two early Egyptian Christians?

Would that blow your mind? Would you believe me? And what will you tell us next?

And - this one is for you too, thepillar - what if I followed that up by saying that, in the entire book, I can’t find ANY comparisons between Jesus and any Egyptian gods whatsoever? Not between Jesus and Horus. Not between Jesus and Osiris. Not even between Jesus and that cat-headed lady, whatever her name is? Nothing. Nothing whatsoever.

Hell, it seems as if whenever Sir Wallis Budge does make direct comparisons between ye olde Egyptian religion and Christianity, it is only to point out glaring differences between the two, like so:

[In the Egyptian religion,] the Ka, Ba, or Heart-soul, and Shadow dwelt in the tomb with the body, or wandered about outside it and away from it, when they desired to do so. Their existence was finite, and appears to have terminated whenever funerary offerings failed to be made to them. As all tomb-endowments came to an end sooner or later, the destruction of the Ka and its soul and shadow was certain. On the other hand, the Sahu, or Spirit-body, which was revivified from the physical body, was wholly independent of offerings, for it derived its sustenance from the Khu, or Spirit-soul, and this was self-existent and immortal. Therefore it was the Sahu which entered heaven and lived with Osiris and the blessed for all eternity. This being so it is easy to understand why the Egyptians took such pains to preserve the bodies of their dead by mummification, and why the custom of embalming the dead continued in Egypt for some centuries after the introduction of Christianity into that country, in fact until the doctrine preached by Saint Anthony became known. This great ascetic taught men to believe that Christ would, at the Resurrection, give them back their bodies in a glorified state, and that therefore mummification was unnecessary for the genesis of the spiritual body.

In fact, the whole point of Sir Wallis Budge’s book - for which he caught a great deal of flak in his day - was that the old Egyptian religion was entirely dissimilar to both Christianity and any other “highly civilized” Asian or European religion, for it was, according to Sir Wallis Budge, an entirely African religion, i.e. a “natural product of the religious mind of the natives of certain parts of Africa, which is the same in all periods.”

In his own words - from the very book you, monavis, have claimed to read, and on which you base your entire argument! - he explains that it would be a grave mistake to…

… estimate the Egyptian Religion from the standpoint of the highly civilized Asiatic, eastern or western, or European, for it is an African product, and can only be rightly appreciated and understood when considered in connection with what we know of modern African religion.

So, in conclusion: What the hell, monavis? What happened here? How could you possibly have read through all 900 pages of Sir Wallis Budge’s book, and come out believing that it shows a great number of similarities between Jesus on one hand, and any number of Egyptian gods on the other? And as for the specific claim that Osiris ever walked on water, how could you possibly have gotten that from this book?

[monavis]

@Steken

Hey, monavis, what if I told you that Osiris and the Egyptian Resurrection has no more than one single reference to “walking on water” listed in its index – and that it sure as hell ain’t Osiris who is doing the walking? But instead Bessarion and Petarpemotis, two early Egyptian Christians?

Would that blow your mind? Would you believe me? And what will you tell us next?

And - this one is for you too, thepillar - what if I followed that up by saying that, in the entire book, I can’t find ANY comparisons between Jesus and any Egyptian gods whatsoever? Not between Jesus and Horus. Not between Jesus and Osiris. Not even between Jesus and that cat-headed lady, whatever her name is? Nothing. Nothing whatsoever.

Hell, it seems as if whenever Sir Wallis Budge does make direct comparisons between ye olde Egyptian religion and Christianity, it is only to point out glaring differences between the two, like so:

In fact, the whole point of Sir Wallis Budge’s book - for which he caught a great deal of flak in his day - was that the old Egyptian religion was entirely dissimilar to both Christianity and any other “highly civilized” Asian or European religion, for it was, according to Sir Wallis Budge, an entirely African religion, i.e. a “natural product of the religious mind of the natives of certain parts of Africa, which is the same in all periods.”

In his own words - from the very book you, monavis, have claimed to read, and on which you base your entire argument! - he explains that it would be a grave mistake to…

So, in conclusion: What the hell, monavis? What happened here? How could you possibly have read through all 900 pages of Sir Wallis Budge’s book, and come out believing that it shows a great number of similarities between Jesus on one hand, and any number of Egyptian gods on the other? And as for the specific claim that Osiris ever walked on water, how could you possibly have gotten that from this book?

What I read was what made me see the things that was similar to Jesus, if you see it another way That is your right, I didn’t state that all was like Jesus is written about. And the writers thousands of years ago wrote about their god .

Many of the things Jesus is said to have done are questionable. and a believer is not going to want what was written ,( some mostly after the fact) to be true. That is your right. I will get my Book on Osiris and give the page when I get the time to look it up. I didn’t memorize any of it just remembered some. Just as a pages of the Bible wasn’t Memorized doesn’t mean it isn’t in there.

[Dissonance]

@thepillar

–Osiris and the Egyptian Resurrection, E.A. Wallis Budge

If you could substitute Jesus for Osiris and Christianity for Egyptian/Osirian’s Religion in the cited passage, you would then understand what the OP is trying to say.

It’s sad but unsurprising that the first actual cite from said book isn’t from monavis. However, monavis isn’t the OP, and I didn’t have any problem understanding what the OP was trying to say, only with monavis’s galloping argument that Osiris (or was it Horus?) = Jesus. That both involve resurrection isn’t enough, or even very meaningful. deltasigma already pointed out back in post 21 that resurrection myths are very common. You certainly could substitute Jesus for Osiris and Christianity for Egyptian/Osirian’s Religion in the quoted passage, but I must have missed the part where Jesus taught to remove internal organs from the dead, including pulling the brain out through the nose, place them in jars and mummify the body of the dead for resurrection.

I’m still not seeing Osiris being called God (note - capital G), the son of God, the Good shepherd, or walking on water.

[Steken]

@monavis

I will get my Book on Osiris and give the page when I get the time to look it up.

Thanks, looking forward to it.

[monavis]

@Trinopus

But…the Bible does say at least part of what monavis just said.

The bit about the lost sheep of Israel may not be correct, but the part about speaking in parables to deny salvation to at least some of “those outside” appears to be right in the text.

This is a direct quote from the K J Bible: Matthew chapter 15 verse 24 "But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel…

I guess one can translate that to any way they wish. It is true he did help her but it seems it wasn’t his purpose.