# Simple "Deliverance" (1972) question about the Mountain Men **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 14, 2016, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simple-deliverance-1972-question-about-the-mountain-men/743099 "2016-01-14T02:21:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Small\_Hen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ad7895/32.png) [@Small\_Hen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Small_Hen)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simple-deliverance-1972-question-about-the-mountain-men/743099/41 "2016-01-14T20:37:50Z")
> [@Anaamika](#): > > Your last statement is just as important, I think, as the rest. The book goes into more detail about the mark it left on Ed, and it left marks (obviously) on all of them. > > One dead > One raped > One man severely physically injured, but more than that, his faith in himself as being the Uber man is kind of broken > One man who became a Man, but lost his sense of who he was and shows the beginnings of detachment to society > > I would not be surprised to see Ed on a clock tower in the future. I’ve never read the book, although perhaps I should. I’ve heard very good things. I’m a little more on the fence about my interpretation of the movie now, having participated in this thread. But I still think the movie very much glorifies the macho violence, with a little addendum about how bad it is tacked on. Maybe Boorman was having his cake and eating it too. From the movie I didn’t get that Ed was so much becoming detached from society as showing possible signs of PTSD (from only the one scene at the end, it’s hard to tell). But it sounds like the book goes into that more. ---
**Author:** ![Laggard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de053/32.png) [@Laggard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laggard)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simple-deliverance-1972-question-about-the-mountain-men/743099/42 "2016-01-14T21:02:32Z")
Something that’s been debated is whether or not Drew intentionally fell from the canoe and killed himself. I’ve watched the scene dozens of times and can’t decide if he accidentally fell or did it himself. Curious what the book says. ---
**Author:** ![burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/burpo_the_wonder_mutt/32/365_2.png) [@burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burpo_the_wonder_mutt)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simple-deliverance-1972-question-about-the-mountain-men/743099/43 "2016-01-14T21:11:41Z")
Wasn’t Drew shot in the head? And then fell over? And you didn’t hear it because of the rapids? ---
**Author:** ![Doyle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doyle/32/439_2.png) [@Doyle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doyle)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simple-deliverance-1972-question-about-the-mountain-men/743099/44 "2016-01-14T21:29:04Z")
> [@burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](#): > > Wasn’t Drew shot in the head? And then fell over? And you didn’t hear it because of the rapids? When they examined the Drew’s body, they were unable to determine if his wound was from a rock or a shot. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simple-deliverance-1972-question-about-the-mountain-men/743099/45 "2016-01-14T21:39:20Z")
Dueling Banjos [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpL0Q2OSRwQ) ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simple-deliverance-1972-question-about-the-mountain-men/743099/46 "2016-01-14T22:56:51Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Most likely the bad guys’ trouble-making dispositions were known by the locals… Correct. From the book: \*“Sheriff: Ok. So long. Have a good trip. Ed: So long. And I hope Deputy Queen finds his brother-in-law. Sheriff: Aw, he’ll come in drunk. He’s a mean bastard anyway. Old Queen’s sister’d be better off without him. So would everybody else.” \* > [@Anaamika](#): > > The movie is good, but the book is something else entirely. > [@Small\_Hen](#): > > I’ve never read the book, although perhaps I should. I’ve heard very good things. I can’t recommend the book strongly enough. One of my five desert island books, I’ve read it several times since the 70’s. I find Dickey’s story (and his real life persona) a little disturbing, but the craftsmanship, artistry, and beauty of his writing in Deliverance is breathtaking. > [@Doyle](#): > > When they examined the Drew’s body, they were unable to determine if his wound was from a rock or a shot. Book again: Ed and Bobby can’t tell whether or not Drew’s (corpse) headwound is from a bullet, so they force Lewis to look at it. Lewis is very badly injured at this point, but is the only one with experience in such matters. Lewis needs only a glance to determine Drew was grazed by a bullet. > [@Scumpup](#): > > As they are leaving the village for where they will put into the river, we glimpse some other locals (not clearly enough to know for sure if they are the rapists) piling into their own vehicle to follow. The Griners have agreed to follow the guys to the put-in spot on the river in order to drive the cars to the take-out point downstream. They can’t accomplish that without following them to that departure spot. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2016, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simple-deliverance-1972-question-about-the-mountain-men/743099/47 "2016-01-14T23:08:55Z")
Yes, but we see one of them, who might or might not be the toothless bastard, throw a gun in the following vehicle, IIRC, and the gun is a double barrel shotgun as used in the rape scene. ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simple-deliverance-1972-question-about-the-mountain-men/743099/48 "2016-01-15T04:36:26Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Yes, but we see one of them, who might or might not be the toothless bastard, throw a gun in the following vehicle, IIRC, and the gun is a double barrel shotgun as used in the rape scene. Ah. Looks like I’ll have to watch it again. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simple-deliverance-1972-question-about-the-mountain-men/743099/49 "2016-01-15T04:59:58Z")
> [@Small\_Hen](#): > > But I didn’t see a lot of satire there, save for a scene or two. I don’t think the movie is a satire at all, but it’s still an absolutely savage deconstruction of toxic modes of masculinity. I don’t know if that was the intent - knowing what I do about both Boorman and Dickey, I tend to doubt it - but taking the work of its own, the message I get is that the concept of masculinity that all these characters are pursuing from the very beginning of he movie ultimately destroys all of them. Watching it as a man, there’s not a single character there that I would want to emulate. It is, to me, not an aspirational film, but a cautionary one. “Do not be like these men,” is what I get from it. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simple-deliverance-1972-question-about-the-mountain-men/743099/50 "2016-01-15T05:09:25Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > Bill McKinney. He also played Captain Terrill (aka Capt. Redlegs) in “The Outlaw Josie Wales”. So he’s been killed on screen by Burt Reynolds and Clint Eastwood. > > He also played the State Police captain in “First Blood”, though he survived Sylvester Stallone. He was also the blond hippie that played a guitarlike instrument in that Eden episode of ST:TOS, if you can reach. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simple-deliverance-1972-question-about-the-mountain-men/743099/51 "2016-01-15T12:50:20Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > He was also the blond hippie that played a guitarlike instrument in that Eden episode of ST:TOS, if you can reach. Not according to his [imdb page](http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0571853/?ref_=nv_sr_1). Doesn’t list Star Trek at all. If you mean [this guy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pNQYHvhnms), that was actually [Charles Napier](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0708482/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1), which is actually far more surprising IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simple-deliverance-1972-question-about-the-mountain-men/743099/52 "2016-01-15T19:00:47Z")
> [@TreacherousCretin](#): > > …I find Dickey’s story (and his real life persona) a little disturbing… How come?: [James Dickey - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Dickey) ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simple-deliverance-1972-question-about-the-mountain-men/743099/53 "2016-01-15T20:52:44Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > How come?: [James Dickey - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Dickey) Clarification: My praises for the book notwithstanding, I do find the story a bit disturbing. I’ve read that Dickey could be a blustery macho asshole. One illuminating account was _Summer Of Deliverance_, written by Dickey’s journalist son Christopher. ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simple-deliverance-1972-question-about-the-mountain-men/743099/54 "2016-01-15T21:01:57Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I don’t think the movie is a satire at all, but it’s still an absolutely savage deconstruction of toxic modes of masculinity. **I don’t know if that was the intent - knowing what I do about both Boorman and Dickey, I tend to doubt it - but taking the work of its own, the message I get is that the concept of masculinity that all these characters are pursuing from the very beginning of he movie ultimately destroys all of them.** Watching it as a man, there’s not a single character there that I would want to emulate. It is, to me, not an aspirational film, but a cautionary one. “Do not be like these men,” is what I get from it. I think you’re absolutely right. Especially the line I bolded. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simple-deliverance-1972-question-about-the-mountain-men/743099/55 "2016-01-15T21:11:42Z")
Thanks, **TC**. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2016, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simple-deliverance-1972-question-about-the-mountain-men/743099/56 "2016-01-15T21:34:44Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > How come?: [James Dickey - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Dickey) Clearly, because of his work in advertising. Or maybe because of his failure in his work in advertising. > [@](#): > > He then worked for several years in advertising, most notably writing copy and helping direct creative work on the Coca-Cola and Lay’s Potato Chips campaign. He once said he embarked on his advertising career in order to “make some bucks.” Dickey also said “I was selling my soul to the devil all day… and trying to buy it back at night.” He was ultimately fired for shirking his work responsibilities. Just think of what he might have accomplished, if he’d put his _Deliverance_ work into his advertising copy for Coke: “Squeal Like a Pig!” may have replaced “The Pause that Refreshes!”. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2016, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simple-deliverance-1972-question-about-the-mountain-men/743099/57 "2016-01-16T03:56:38Z")
Only problem is, the target audience for such an ad campaign doesn’t have enough disposable income to interest the Coca-Cola Co. ---
**Author:** ![Small\_Hen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ad7895/32.png) [@Small\_Hen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Small_Hen)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2016, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simple-deliverance-1972-question-about-the-mountain-men/743099/58 "2016-01-16T13:16:23Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I don’t think the movie is a satire at all, but it’s still an absolutely savage deconstruction of toxic modes of masculinity. I don’t know if that was the intent - knowing what I do about both Boorman and Dickey, I tend to doubt it - but taking the work of its own, the message I get is that the concept of masculinity that all these characters are pursuing from the very beginning of he movie ultimately destroys all of them. Watching it as a man, there’s not a single character there that I would want to emulate. It is, to me, not an aspirational film, but a cautionary one. “Do not be like these men,” is what I get from it. I like this interpretation a lot too, especially as I subscribe to the philosophy of ‘kill the author’ when it comes to analysis. I’m always interested in unintentional themes in film and literature. I’m going to have to give this movie another look sometime. I think I’ll read the book, at any rate. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2016, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simple-deliverance-1972-question-about-the-mountain-men/743099/59 "2016-01-17T13:37:44Z")
Thanks, everyone. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simple-deliverance-1972-question-about-the-mountain-men/743099.md?page=2)