# Simplify The Alphabet? Lets Get Rid of: X, Y, Z? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 17, 2003, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simplify-the-alphabet-lets-get-rid-of-x-y-z/202061 "2003-09-17T00:49:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simplify-the-alphabet-lets-get-rid-of-x-y-z/202061/21 "2003-09-17T14:04:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kaylasdad99 \* > \*\* But I would like for everyone to agree to stop pretending that _w_ and _y_ are consonants. \*\* ell! anker… ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simplify-the-alphabet-lets-get-rid-of-x-y-z/202061/22 "2003-09-17T14:39:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by corndog man \* > The problem with English in my opinion is that there are not enough letters for the sounds that are made. No the problem is that you use _too many_ different letters to reproduce the same sounds. > [@](#): > > Then the English spellings. > > UK USA (or correct spelling) > Neighbour neighbor > colour color > programme program > centre center LOL!! So English can’t spell english, while that far away ex-colony can? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simplify-the-alphabet-lets-get-rid-of-x-y-z/202061/23 "2003-09-17T14:59:27Z")
yeah, galanthus! I’m in favor of replacing our currently indeterminate system with an entirely accurate system: the standard linguistic spelling system. After a few months its just as easy to read as English (and almost as easy to read as ALL CAPS ;)) I would have composed this post in it, but since the characters are not standard, they won’t come through on the linguistically-biased web 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simplify-the-alphabet-lets-get-rid-of-x-y-z/202061/24 "2003-09-17T15:51:40Z")
There is no “standard linguistic spelling system” for English, or for any language with a large number of speakers. Each region, if recorded phonemically using the IPA or a similar system, will actually produce different “spellings” for the same words. Indeed, if one wishes to get phonetic rather than phonemic, the “spelling” becomes even more widely variant. ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simplify-the-alphabet-lets-get-rid-of-x-y-z/202061/25 "2003-09-17T15:57:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Galanthus \* > \*\*No way, amoungst other things thats just dull, > > I say bring back Æ,Ð,and Þ instead !! \*\* Welcome to Þe boards! I Þink I like Ðee Ælready! ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simplify-the-alphabet-lets-get-rid-of-x-y-z/202061/26 "2003-09-17T16:08:52Z")
Ðis free use of the familiar likes me not, but in Þis day of mandatory informality, I can see why you would use it, Þus saying “Þou” instead of “you”. Ðus, I will likewise adopt Þy convention. But Þou writest in error when Þou usest the “ash” “Æ” in "already. “Æ” is to be used in other circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simplify-the-alphabet-lets-get-rid-of-x-y-z/202061/27 "2003-09-17T17:01:53Z")
And wissest Þu se underscide betwix Þ and Ð, ic wundre? ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simplify-the-alphabet-lets-get-rid-of-x-y-z/202061/28 "2003-09-17T17:26:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > \*\*Ðis free use of the familiar likes me not, but in Þis day of mandatory informality, I can see why you would use it, Þus saying “Þou” instead of “you”. Ðus, I will likewise adopt Þy convention. But Þou writest in error when Þou usest the “ash” “Æ” in "already. “Æ” is to be used in other circumstances. \*\* Þou art ri3t; I have ever greater affected the Englysh of More and Marlowe than thys barbaric tongue of their Anglo-Saxon forefathers. And I wot not what is this “underscide” of which **Latro** speaketh. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simplify-the-alphabet-lets-get-rid-of-x-y-z/202061/29 "2003-09-17T17:49:13Z")
OMFGROFL u guyz! It’s like medieval l33tsp33k! ---
**Author:** ![biqu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@biqu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/biqu)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simplify-the-alphabet-lets-get-rid-of-x-y-z/202061/30 "2003-09-17T19:47:43Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Latro_ > And wissest Þu se underscide betwix Þ and Ð, ic wundre? > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Fretful Porcupine_ > And I wot not what is this “underscide” of which **Latro** speaketh. **Latro** ’s sentence probably translates to: “And I wonder if you know the difference between Þ and Ð?” Where **underscide** is translated as “difference”, although it could be plural. ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simplify-the-alphabet-lets-get-rid-of-x-y-z/202061/31 "2003-09-17T20:00:52Z")
Yeah, that’s about what I guessed, but I meant I _don’t_ know the difference. (My Old English education was sadly deficient, consisting mostly of the professor telling long and rambling stories about his encounters with Eccentric Librarians of Europe, so I’d always vaguely assumed that the difference between _eth_ and _thorn_ was mostly decorative. Guess not.) ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simplify-the-alphabet-lets-get-rid-of-x-y-z/202061/32 "2003-09-17T20:51:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Latro \* > \*\*No the problem is that you use _too many_ different letters to reproduce the same sounds. > \*\* I agree. I’ve been for eliminating c, q, x and the use of y as a vowel for a long time. C is either sounded like K or S. Since we already have K and S, we don’t need C. As has already been said, Q can be replaced K or KW depending on the word. X can be replaced by KS, KZ, or Z. Aleksander, Alekzander, and zylophone. X disappearing except in math is no problem. Higher mathematics makes use of many Greek letters. X would simply be accepted as the symbol for an axis or the unknown the same way Pi or Theta is accepted. Y has a unique sound as a consonant. However, it can be replaced by I or E when used as a vowel. I am against any systems which uses a single letter to stand for a sound that can be produced by two others. I believe that English spelling should be standardised. As it is, there is a bewildering mix of Latinate and Teutonic constructions and rules. ---
**Author:** ![biqu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@biqu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/biqu)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simplify-the-alphabet-lets-get-rid-of-x-y-z/202061/33 "2003-09-17T20:58:03Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Fretful Porcupine_ > Yeah, that’s about what I guessed, but I meant I _don’t_ know the difference. According to [this site](http://www.kafejo.com/lingvoj/conlangs/aep/orthogra.htm), > [@](#): > > The digraph æ is not to be thought of as a combination of a and e, but as a separate letter; it follows a… The only other departure from the [modern] order of the alphabet is that the letter þ follows t. The letters þ and ð are considered the same letter and are alphabetized the same. > > - Old English Grammar and Reader, Robert E. Diamond (Glossary/Alphabetization) \ > > Usage of þ and ð changed over the years. Though I’m certain that they originally indicated two sounds (else why two characters?), Pollington’s Wordcraft implies that the two actually sounded exactly the same at some time, following these rules… > > [ul][li] Unvoiced initially and finally, as in thin and hath[/li][li] Voiced medially as in bother[/li][li] Unless doubled, which always makes them unvoiced.[/ul][/li] > On the other hand, the convention that I followed is that used in Diamond’s Old English Grammat & Reader, which uses a regularized spelling system, a modified form of the Early West Saxon dialect in use at the time of King Alfred, in the late ninth century, with þ unvoiced and ð voiced (unless doubled). ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simplify-the-alphabet-lets-get-rid-of-x-y-z/202061/34 "2003-09-17T22:35:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DocCathode \* > **Y has a unique sound as a consonant. However, it can be replaced by I or E when used as a vowel.** Truly? I wonder if you could share a word in which Y has a unique sound as a consonant? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simplify-the-alphabet-lets-get-rid-of-x-y-z/202061/35 "2003-09-17T22:46:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kaylasdad99 \* > \*\*Truly? > > I wonder if you could share a word in which Y has a unique sound as a consonant? \*\* Yell. Yield. Yellow. Yaw. Ya get the point. ---
**Author:** ![knock\_knock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/22d042/32.png) [@knock\_knock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/knock_knock)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simplify-the-alphabet-lets-get-rid-of-x-y-z/202061/36 "2003-09-17T22:56:03Z")
Many highly respected sources have suggested removing C, Q, and X from the English language. For instance, in 1900 the Ladies’ Home Journal [predicted](http://future.newsday.com/2/fbak0305.htm) that these letters would be gone by the end of the century. Then, 7 months ago, I made that very same suggestion in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=157035), in response to others who suggested eliminating K, S, Y, or Z. As I wrote there: > [@](#): > > We need k. How else would you spell “make”? mace? macce? We need s. How else would you spell “sake”? zake? cake? Maybe we could get rid of c, replacing soft c with s and hard c with k. This is similar to what **Zagadka** suggested (dropping s and making c always soft), but easier, since we’re used to soft s but we’re not used to c always being soft. “ck” would become “k” when possible, and “kk” when necessary (e.g. “pik me!”, “They pikked someone else”, “are you chikken?” Also, we kould probably drop “x” in favor of “z” or “ks” (e.g. boks, miksing, maksimum, zylofone, Zeroks, Zerkses.) And we kould drop “q”, replasing “qu” with “kw” as in “kome kwickly”, “I kwit”, “I work at the Kwik-E-Mart”, “Bomb Irak!”, and “Don’t be so inkwisitive”. > > These changes might work for the language, but mathematisians & physisists wouldn’t like 'em. They’d have to find a new variable to use all the time (you sertainly don’t want to label something the eks aksis) and a new speed of light (E=Ms[sup]2[/sup] ?). There would also be komplaints from advertisers & Major League Baseball, bekause whenever “x” replases “cks” it makes the word fun! No one would want to root for a team kalled the “White Socks” or eat a sereal kalled “Kicks”. > > After re-reading what I’ve written (and updating all the relevant language), the main problem that I see is replasing “ch”. “sh” is already taken (e.g. chip -\> ship), and “kh”, while rare, is okkasionally used. There are 403 entries with “kh” in [this diktionary](http://www.m-w.com/) [search for _kh_] (e.g. lakh, khaki), and it would be weird to say “kh” like we now say “ch” if k was always hard. If we did drop “s” and we made “c” coft, then we’d have the came problem with replacing “sh”. > > Maybe “jh” could replase “ch”, as in “just jhill”, “Jheers!”, “Taks the rijh!”, “jhange is good”, “slised jheddar jheese,” and “pass the natjhos”. The only eksisting words I found with “jh” are the obskure geographik “Jhelum”, “Jharkhand”, and “Jhansi” and the abbreviation “JHVH” (a variant of YHWH). > > When “ch” has another pronunsiation, we kould either use jh or find other replasements (e.g. likhen, Shateaux (or Jhateaux), and Mishigan (or Mijhigan)). Also trikky is “cc”. When it doesn’t have a “k” sound, that kould be replased by ks or jh or some other appropriate letter kombination, e.g. I’ve had great suksess in Bojhe Ball. > > … > > We kould follow **Zagadka** ’s suggestion about the single letter and reinstate “c” to replase “ch”, but we’d have to watc out, bekause it kould get trikky using the same letter for new purposes. > > I don’t think anyone here is predikting that the language aktually will make these canges (I know I’m not), just looking to see what canges kould be made. > > No, I think I like it better as “jhanges.” The lone c is just too konfusing - its other sound is too familiar, and there is a lot of similarity between the “ch” sound and the “j” sound (although adding an “h” after the “j” doesn’t really kapture the differense between the two). Any linguists here kould be more presise about the phonemes, ets. > > Also, I was thinking that if we took q, x, and c off the keyboard, then everyone would have to relearn how to type, so we kould use the opportunity to replase werty keyboards with a slightly adjusted version of dvorak. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simplify-the-alphabet-lets-get-rid-of-x-y-z/202061/37 "2003-09-18T18:52:56Z")
The different spellings would be acceptable: it would introduce people to other’s accents. Most words would be perfectly clear once you knew what accent they were speaking in. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simplify-the-alphabet-lets-get-rid-of-x-y-z/202061/38 "2003-09-18T20:37:06Z")
The new alphabet: Character Sound A A E E I I O O U U B B C Sh D D F F, Ph, Gh G Hard G H H J J, Soft G K K, Hard C L L M M N N P P R R S S, Soft C T T V V W W X Ch Y Zh, Dh, Jh (the zhhh sound in “azure” ) Z Z, X when it sounds like Z Þ Hard Th (like in “Thick”) Ð Soft Th (like in “This”) Add hats to the vowels as neccesary. All consonant letters produce one and only one sound. We have revived the ancient characters of Thorn and Edh for the various Th sounds, and have repurposed existing letters for the various other sounds…C is now Sh, X is Ch, Y is Zh. We still have Q unassigned if anyone can think of a commonly used consonantal sound with no single character to represent it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simplify-the-alphabet-lets-get-rid-of-x-y-z/202061/39 "2003-09-18T21:12:33Z")
Lemur: We need a “y” as in the first consonent sound in “yes”. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simplify-the-alphabet-lets-get-rid-of-x-y-z/202061/40 "2003-09-18T21:12:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DocCathode \* > \*\*Yell. > > Yield. > > Yellow. > > Yaw. > > Ya get the point. \*\* Actually, I don’t. I pronounce each of those as a long “ee”, spoken very quickly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simplify-the-alphabet-lets-get-rid-of-x-y-z/202061.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simplify-the-alphabet-lets-get-rid-of-x-y-z/202061.md?page=3)