# Simulism: The Reason I Have Become Religious **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 16, 2013, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simulism-the-reason-i-have-become-religious/676488 "2013-12-16T18:56:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![IMfez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f07891/32.png) [@IMfez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IMfez)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simulism-the-reason-i-have-become-religious/676488/1 "2013-12-16T18:56:03Z")
I was once a staunch atheist; now I am somewhat religious. My changed of attitude came about from Nick Bostrom’s Theory of Simulsim. Simulism requires 2 basic assumptions: 1. There are, or were other intelligent alien civilizations 2. Computing technology has the power to simulte a universe, in the eyes of the unknowing inhabitants of the simulated world. From these 2 assumptions Bostrom arrives at only 2 logical conclusions: 1. All intelligent alien civilizations have not run universe simulations. Perhaps every single one of them decided it was unethical, or they all reach a point of self destruction before running the simulations. 2. We are almost certainly in a simulation ourselves. 10 billion alien computers programs running simulations simultaneously, for example, reduces our chances of being in the real universe down to 1/10 billion. Interestingly, if we are able to create computing technology that can create simulated beings & worlds, the chance of us being simulated goes up even more–one of the assumptions of the theory is removed. Because the theory of simulism sounds highly plausible to me, I conclude that I now have some degree of religious, but not spiritual faith. Am I crazy? Am I neglecting something? Please tell me why this somewhat religious fool is wrong 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simulism-the-reason-i-have-become-religious/676488/2 "2013-12-16T19:03:07Z")
What evidence do you have that the two underlying basic assumptions are correct? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simulism-the-reason-i-have-become-religious/676488/3 "2013-12-16T19:04:35Z")
I don’t see why the assumption must be that either none of those alien civs have come up with SimUniverses or all of them. Moreover, since we don’t actually have any evidence for the “intelligent alien civilisations” premise, equally we could say that there are an unknown number of parallel universes, in which case the ratio becomes X/X rather than 1/X. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simulism-the-reason-i-have-become-religious/676488/4 "2013-12-16T19:07:46Z")
Why does intelligent alien life=religion? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simulism-the-reason-i-have-become-religious/676488/5 "2013-12-16T19:07:55Z")
I can’t make any sense of the OP. If humans are simulations running in some alien computer, why would that make you turn to religion? Your statistiics are purely made up, with no basis whatsever in our observed reality. What if there are 100 billion civilizations? Or 10 million? There is no way anyone can reasonably come to a conclusion that we are “almost certainly” simulations. ---
**Author:** ![IMfez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f07891/32.png) [@IMfez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IMfez)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simulism-the-reason-i-have-become-religious/676488/6 "2013-12-16T19:08:33Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What evidence do you have that the two underlying basic assumptions are correct? I don’t have evidence but am comfortable speculating. I believe other alien civilizations aria strong possibility. The computing technology assumption is a tougher call, but again one I am somewhat confident in. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simulism-the-reason-i-have-become-religious/676488/7 "2013-12-16T19:09:45Z")
Further evidence of simulism: quantum uncertainty is just dithering performed by the simulator to make up for the limited number of bits available for simulation – similar to how high end CD players would use dithering to make up for the 16-bit limitation on CDs. ---
**Author:** ![IMfez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f07891/32.png) [@IMfez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IMfez)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simulism-the-reason-i-have-become-religious/676488/8 "2013-12-16T19:11:35Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Your statistiics are purely made up, with no basis whatsever in our observed reality. What if there are 100 billion civilizations? Or 10 million? There is no way anyone can reasonably come to a conclusion that we are “almost certainly” simulations. Perhaps I didn’t explain the theory well enough. If we assert that there are other alien civilizations, it follows that there are a fairly high number of simulations running. We run thousands if not millions of primitive simulations already. The exact number does not matter; just the fact that the figure puts our chances of being in “the real universe” very low. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simulism-the-reason-i-have-become-religious/676488/9 "2013-12-16T19:12:06Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > Why does intelligent alien life=religion? It seems like the OP is using religion to mean accepting the proposition of simulism without evidence. Although, since I have provided irrefutable evidence (;)), I guess he’s no longer religious. ---
**Author:** ![IMfez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f07891/32.png) [@IMfez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IMfez)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simulism-the-reason-i-have-become-religious/676488/10 "2013-12-16T19:13:11Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > Why does intelligent alien life=religion? The theory mentioned does not state this, although the presence of alien life is required for one assumption. ---
**Author:** ![IMfez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f07891/32.png) [@IMfez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IMfez)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simulism-the-reason-i-have-become-religious/676488/11 "2013-12-16T19:14:41Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I don’t see why the assumption must be that either none of those alien civs have come up with SimUniverses or all of them. > > Moreover, since we don’t actually have any evidence for the “intelligent alien civilisations” premise, equally we could say that there are an unknown number of parallel universes, in which case the ratio becomes X/X rather than 1/X. The assumption does not require all alien civilizations to run simulations. Indeed, if only 1 out of say 1,000 did, the theory still holds true. Your 2nd point is an excellent one. ---
**Author:** ![IMfez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f07891/32.png) [@IMfez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IMfez)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simulism-the-reason-i-have-become-religious/676488/12 "2013-12-16T19:16:50Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > It seems like the OP is using religion to mean accepting the proposition of simulism without evidence. > > Although, since I have provided irrefutable evidence (;)), I guess he’s no longer religious. Simulism theory allows for a metaphysical power who created the universe–do you not consider this theory to be a form of religious belief? ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simulism-the-reason-i-have-become-religious/676488/13 "2013-12-16T19:20:02Z")
It’s alien technology simulism all the way down. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simulism-the-reason-i-have-become-religious/676488/14 "2013-12-16T19:22:42Z")
> [@IMfez](#): > > If we assert that there are other alien civilizations, it follows that there are a fairly high number of simulations running. We run thousands if not millions of primitive simulations already. The exact number does not matter; just the fact that the figure puts our chances of being in “the real universe” very low. You’re assuming that something (which we can’t do) is not only in the realm of the possible, but something that other civilizations (which we haven’t encountered) do on a regular bases. You’re entire premise is built on a house of cards. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simulism-the-reason-i-have-become-religious/676488/15 "2013-12-16T19:23:18Z")
> [@IMfez](#): > > Simulism theory allows for a metaphysical power who created the universe–do you not consider this theory to be a form of religious belief? Why? Can’t you have alien simulations without metaphysical power? All you’ve talked about is the former, and have not explained where you get from that to the latter. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simulism-the-reason-i-have-become-religious/676488/16 "2013-12-16T19:24:45Z")
> [@IMfez](#): > > Simulism theory allows for a metaphysical power who created the universe–do you not consider this theory to be a form of religious belief? Not really. The first definition I find of religious belief is: “A strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny” So, deism wouldn’t really be a religious belief. Since the simulation is so large and our planet and sphere of influence is so small, it seems unlikely that the Great Simulators would care about us at all, let alone care whether we worship them. We would be like some tiny number of blocks in a truly massive Game of Life – why would they care if there are some interesting patterns in a tiny, tiny section of a universe-sized game? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simulism-the-reason-i-have-become-religious/676488/17 "2013-12-16T19:26:59Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Why? Can’t you have alien simulations without metaphysical power? All you’ve talked about is the former, and have not explained where you get from that to the latter. The alien civilization that’s running the simulation would have metaphysical power over the simulation itself, right? If I create a really complex game of The Sims, I could move its subjects around unconstrained by whatever physical laws I’ve set up inside the simulation. ---
**Author:** ![IMfez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f07891/32.png) [@IMfez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IMfez)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simulism-the-reason-i-have-become-religious/676488/18 "2013-12-16T19:27:17Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > You’re assuming that something (which we can’t do) is not only in the realm of the possible, but something that other civilizations (which we haven’t encountered) do on a regular bases. You’re entire premise is built on a house of cards. As mentioned, the computer power requirement is an assumption. Whether simulations are widely run or not, is not an assumption; it is a possibility that I am open to. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simulism-the-reason-i-have-become-religious/676488/19 "2013-12-16T19:30:21Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > The alien civilization that’s running the simulation would have metaphysical power over the simulation itself, right? If I create a really complex game of The Sims, I could move its subjects around unconstrained by whatever physical laws I’ve set up inside the simulation. Yeah, but I still wouldn’t worship you. Besides, that’s not real supernatural stuff, it’s just the simulated stuff. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simulism-the-reason-i-have-become-religious/676488/20 "2013-12-16T19:33:07Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > You’re assuming that something (which we can’t do) is not only in the realm of the possible, but something that other civilizations (which we haven’t encountered) do on a regular bases. You’re entire premise is built on a house of cards. It’s just not possible in our simulated universe. I’m not surprised that the simulator is not powerful enough to allow simulators inside of it with the same power. In fact, if we are in a simulation, we would have no way of knowing what the real universe is like. When I run an Apple ][emulator on my quad-core PC, the “Apple][” churns away thinking that’s as good as it gets, never knowing that it’s just one process among many, and not even using up a lot of the simulator’s memory or processing power. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simulism-the-reason-i-have-become-religious/676488.md?page=2)