# Simulism: The Reason I Have Become Religious **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 16, 2013, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simulism-the-reason-i-have-become-religious/676488 "2013-12-16T18:56:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simulism-the-reason-i-have-become-religious/676488/21 "2013-12-16T19:33:12Z")
assuming I understood the OP and assuming it was true, what difference does it make? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simulism-the-reason-i-have-become-religious/676488/22 "2013-12-16T19:37:39Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yeah, but I still wouldn’t worship you. > > Besides, that’s not real supernatural stuff, it’s just the simulated stuff. As I mention, if I’m simulating the whole universe, I don’t care whether some tiny number of bits (relative to the universe) has formed a pattern posting on a message board, so I don’t care whether you worship me or not. If I did care (that is, if the simulators cared enough to see what was going on in our little corner of the simulation), they could probably do all kinds of things that were supernatural from our point of view inside the simulation. Create a character that can bring back other characters from the dead and can unload the water simulation and replace it with the wine simulation, just to name a few things. That character could be given the power to walk over substances that the rest of the Sims sink into. ETA: to **Procustus** : no difference that I can see. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simulism-the-reason-i-have-become-religious/676488/23 "2013-12-16T19:42:16Z")
> [@IMfez](#): > > As mentioned, the computer power requirement is an assumption. Whether simulations are widely run or not, is not an assumption; it is a possibility that I am open to. How is the possibility that you’ve opened yourself to any different than the myriad possibilities (read: gods) others are open to? ---
**Author:** ![IMfez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f07891/32.png) [@IMfez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IMfez)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simulism-the-reason-i-have-become-religious/676488/24 "2013-12-16T19:44:31Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > assuming I understood the OP and assuming it was true, what difference does it make? The difference is that there is a creator who wields tremendous power over you. ---
**Author:** ![IMfez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f07891/32.png) [@IMfez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IMfez)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simulism-the-reason-i-have-become-religious/676488/25 "2013-12-16T19:46:21Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > How is the possibility that you’ve opened yourself to any different than the myriad possibilities (read: gods) others are open to? It is different because it is statistically plausible. There are 2 assumptions, which others may or may not feel are realistic; I personally think both are reasonable to at least consider. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simulism-the-reason-i-have-become-religious/676488/26 "2013-12-16T19:52:23Z")
> [@IMfez](#): > > It is different because it is statistically plausible. Not to be blunt, but your statistics are made up out of whole cloth. GIGO. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simulism-the-reason-i-have-become-religious/676488/27 "2013-12-16T19:57:31Z")
> [@IMfez](#): > > The difference is that there is a creator who wields tremendous power over you. we’ll see. Or not. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simulism-the-reason-i-have-become-religious/676488/28 "2013-12-16T20:01:54Z")
> [@IMfez](#): > > The difference is that there is a creator who wields tremendous power over you. Power such as…? ---
**Author:** ![IMfez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f07891/32.png) [@IMfez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IMfez)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simulism-the-reason-i-have-become-religious/676488/29 "2013-12-16T20:04:06Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Not to be blunt, but your statistics are made up out of whole cloth. GIGO. Again, the specific numbers are not important. Disagreeing with the assumptions is one thing, but the numbers can cover a wide range and still make the theory valid. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simulism-the-reason-i-have-become-religious/676488/30 "2013-12-16T20:04:50Z")
> [@IMfez](#): > > It is different because it is statistically plausible. It’s statistically plausible that I win the mega millions jackpot. But I probably shouldn’t believe that I will and certainly shouldn’t plan my life or retirement on such an assumption. ---
**Author:** ![IMfez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f07891/32.png) [@IMfez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IMfez)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simulism-the-reason-i-have-become-religious/676488/31 "2013-12-16T20:06:05Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Power such as…? The power of a computer programmer over a program. ---
**Author:** ![IMfez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f07891/32.png) [@IMfez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IMfez)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simulism-the-reason-i-have-become-religious/676488/32 "2013-12-16T20:07:50Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > It’s statistically plausible that I win the mega millions jackpot. But I probably shouldn’t believe that I will and certainly shouldn’t plan my life or retirement on such an assumption. In this case your odds are low. My odds hinge on 2 assumptions which I both believe have a high chance of leading to a conclusion of simulation. YMMV of course. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simulism-the-reason-i-have-become-religious/676488/33 "2013-12-16T20:09:45Z")
Well, we know that relatively advanced civilizations can exist, because I’m typing this whilst I eat flavored fiber pills. But we have no knowledge if we’re the only ones. I think it very likely that there are other relatively advanced and beyond civilizations. Very likely doesn’t mean assured. But we haven’t demonstrated that simulating a universe is possible. Although, we don’t really need to simulate a universe. We just need to simulate _you_. I mean if your perceptions say there is an outside universe, it’s just as good. No reason to simulate complex atomic motions of far-away stars. Just simulate the leaves you can see getting blown by the wind. But I agree, if it turns out that simulating a universe is possible, then, I’d suggest we wouldn’t need aliens. We would be more likely to ourselves be simulated by later humans. Of course, the universe we live in, might just be a hugely simplified version of the real universe. And the laws of physics we know might just be fanciful ideas some programmer on the outside had. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simulism-the-reason-i-have-become-religious/676488/34 "2013-12-16T20:13:33Z")
> [@IMfez](#): > > The power of a computer programmer over a program. Congratulations, you’re the most recent person to have ever invented the Matrix movie story line. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simulism-the-reason-i-have-become-religious/676488/35 "2013-12-16T20:30:07Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Although, we don’t really need to simulate a universe. We just need to simulate _you_. I mean if your perceptions say there is an outside universe, it’s just as good. No reason to simulate complex atomic motions of far-away stars. Just simulate the leaves you can see getting blown by the wind. This, I have often thought, would be an interesting explanation for the Copenhagen Interpretation of QM - things only need to be simulated at a general level - the details only need to collapse into place when required. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simulism-the-reason-i-have-become-religious/676488/36 "2013-12-16T20:57:53Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Yeah, but I still wouldn’t worship you. Then you get locked in the clogged WCs with the door deleted just after you went in until you die of hunger ; recursive self-defecation and puking ; or until the unmonitored toddler sets the whole house on fire. Sorry, them’s the SimRules. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simulism-the-reason-i-have-become-religious/676488/37 "2013-12-16T21:03:19Z")
> [@IMfez](#): > > Again, the specific numbers are not important. Disagreeing with the assumptions is one thing, but the numbers can cover a wide range and still make the theory valid. You can’t handwave around the fact that we a) Haven’t encountered any other intelligent life, and b) Haven’t simulated any worlds to a meaningful degree You’re operating as if those are inevitable and we’re just arguing about the percentages. First show that either a or b can happen, then we can worry about the odds of it happening elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![DreamingDJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bcef8e/32.png) [@DreamingDJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DreamingDJ)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simulism-the-reason-i-have-become-religious/676488/38 "2013-12-16T21:09:24Z")
> [@IMfez](#): > > 1. There are, or were other intelligent alien civilizations Okay > [@IMfez](#): > > 1. Computing technology has the power to simulte a universe, in the eyes of the unknowing inhabitants of the simulated world. The complexity of the known world is not possible to create in a cost effective manner. > [@IMfez](#): > > 1. All intelligent alien civilizations have not run universe simulations. Perhaps every single one of them decided it was unethical, or they all reach a point of self destruction before running the simulations. This has nothing to do with ethics. What is a MMORPG? One big simulated universe. Sure would be trippy if there was a universe inside a universe. > [@IMfez](#): > > 1. We are almost certainly in a simulation ourselves. So they made a simulation, it was rather rudimentary. It was fun, and they moved on to more interesting things. Like entertaining themselves. > [@IMfez](#): > > 10 billion alien computers programs running simulations simultaneously, for example, reduces our chances of being in the real universe down to 1/10 billion. Unlikely to run that many simulations. > [@IMfez](#): > > Interestingly, if we are able to create computing technology that can create simulated beings & worlds, the chance of us being simulated goes up even more–one of the assumptions of the theory is removed. Again, the complexity thing. > [@IMfez](#): > > Because the theory of simulism sounds highly plausible to me, I conclude that I now have some degree of religious, but not spiritual faith. You can call it a religion if you want to. Small religions are usually called cults until they take off. And they usually aren’t thinking of deities as being knowable, and would consider the word “alien” to be insulting. > [@IMfez](#): > > Am I crazy? Am I neglecting something? Please tell me why this somewhat religious fool is wrong 🙂 You’re wrong. ---
**Author:** ![IMfez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f07891/32.png) [@IMfez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IMfez)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simulism-the-reason-i-have-become-religious/676488/39 "2013-12-16T21:16:11Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > You can’t handwave around the fact that we > > a) Haven’t encountered any other intelligent life, and > > b) Haven’t simulated any worlds to a meaningful degree > > You’re operating as if those are inevitable and we’re just arguing about the percentages. In the post you quoted and many other instances of this thread I have mentioned that the assumptions can be disagreed with. I believe I’ve been quite accepting of this criticism. I am not “operating” as if A and B are inevitable, I just harbor the belief that both are strong possibilities. > [@](#): > > First show that either a or b can happen, then we can worry about the odds of it happening elsewhere. If you are asking for a scientific study, I am unable to provide you with one. My beliefs are not based on proof, only projections. Further, I do not fully believe them myself, I just consider simulism to be a possibility but not a certainty. I am happy to debate with you on how likely the assumptions of the theory are if you wish. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simulism-the-reason-i-have-become-religious/676488/40 "2013-12-16T21:24:40Z")
> [@IMfez](#): > > The power of a computer programmer over a program. Heh. I wish I had this kind of power over my programs. This idea is nothing new. I heard Ed Fredkin talk about it in my class in 1973. There is a book called “Three Scientists and their Gods” with a chapter on him and his simulation theory. He said that miracles were bugs in the program. However, as someone who has written lots of simulators - of circuits and computers, not universes - this idea fails for a couple of reasons. In simulation you do the minimum necessary to get the results you need. Even if aliens ran simulations, it is unlikely to cover as big a universe as we see. If the radius were just a few million light years, it would work just as well. You also simulate at as high a level as possible. We don’t see that. Now Planck time might be the simulation time step - but it is too small to be efficient. Also, these simulations would be expensive enough that they wouldn’t run very many of them. Simulations take longer than real time - a simulated second of a computer run will take a day to execute - so there are likely more real civilizations than simulated ones. Anyhow the probabilistic argument, which I’ve seen other places, is bogus. It converts a supposed probability of something into a certainty. Given the number of humans who have existed, the probability of anyone being a Cro Magnon man is very small. Yet they existed. But even if we are in a simulation, there is no reason to be religious about it. God is not just about power, it is about knowing all and caring all. But the simulators can’t possibly know everything that goes on in their simulation, since they are finite. They won’t know about each sparrow falling, they’d at best have a summary of sparrows falling per century. And there is no good implied. They’d be just as likely to code a nasty awful universe as a good one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simulism-the-reason-i-have-become-religious/676488.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/simulism-the-reason-i-have-become-religious/676488.md?page=3)