# Sinaijon, you're a complete loon. Not that we didn't know that already. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 9, 2009, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sinaijon-youre-a-complete-loon-not-that-we-didnt-know-that-already/492575 "2009-04-09T22:27:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sinaijon-youre-a-complete-loon-not-that-we-didnt-know-that-already/492575/1 "2009-04-09T22:27:47Z")
In this [post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11022776&postcount=79), **Sinaijon** actually argues that if you tell someone that it’s cold outside, them subsequently grabbing a coat is not a consequence of your action. I thought conservatives were all about personal responsibility (i.e., taking responsibility for your words and, to some extent, how people react to them), or does that only apply when getting help from the government? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sinaijon-youre-a-complete-loon-not-that-we-didnt-know-that-already/492575/2 "2009-04-09T22:44:21Z")
To pick up the theme of the other thread, if someone reads your post and goes out and shoots **Sinaijon** , are you responsible? :dubious:😉 ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sinaijon-youre-a-complete-loon-not-that-we-didnt-know-that-already/492575/3 "2009-04-09T22:49:47Z")
If he’s a liberal, yes. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sinaijon-youre-a-complete-loon-not-that-we-didnt-know-that-already/492575/4 "2009-04-09T22:51:28Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > To pick up the theme of the other thread, if someone reads your post and goes out and shoots **Sinaijon** , are you responsible? :dubious:😉 Clever, but I don’t think that’s really appropriate, even for the Pit. (FTR, mods and others, I’m not junior modding or suggesting that TT should be warned or anything. Just saying I disapprove.) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sinaijon-youre-a-complete-loon-not-that-we-didnt-know-that-already/492575/5 "2009-04-09T23:01:43Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > To pick up the theme of the other thread, if someone reads your post and goes out and shoots **Sinaijon** , are you responsible? :dubious:😉 If I were seriously saying that I thought **Sinaijon** was mentally ill, and someone proceeded to call the cops and have him taken to a mental hospital, I would bear some responsibility for that, yes. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sinaijon-youre-a-complete-loon-not-that-we-didnt-know-that-already/492575/6 "2009-04-09T23:15:54Z")
I am a fiscal conservative that is all about personal responsibility, by which I mean that people are responsible by and large for the outcomes in their life (not every little thing, of course, just the things that are controllable over the long term). The concept of being “morally responsible” for the actions of another person that could be conceivably linked to one’s words or ideas is totally different than this concept of personal responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sinaijon-youre-a-complete-loon-not-that-we-didnt-know-that-already/492575/7 "2009-04-09T23:17:40Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Clever, but I don’t think that’s really appropriate, even for the Pit. How so? He’s not saying that anyone should shoot him, or that he deserves to be shot, he’s just making a clever extrapolation of the argument from the original thread. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sinaijon-youre-a-complete-loon-not-that-we-didnt-know-that-already/492575/8 "2009-04-09T23:32:41Z")
I think it’s a silly argument both ways. Of course it’s a _consequence_; the question is so what. I doubt **Sinaijon** would contest the point that making a claim about the weather is a cause in fact of the subsequent action, or a contributory cause in fact; he’d just contest that this is a meaningful point. In my opinion the real issue is with the statement made in the first place, not with the subsequent action taken by another party. In other words, Glenn Beck is no more or less responsible for what he’s said because of what some lunatic did, because bullshit is bullshit even if nobody buys it, and you’re primarily responsible for not saying bullshit, not not causing massacres. Of course, as a result of that disconnect I think one side can argue no way is he responsible for what happened, while the other side argues what the fuck, the stuff he said was objectively irresponsible bullshit, and nobody ever has to concede anything because everybody’s talking past the same point. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sinaijon-youre-a-complete-loon-not-that-we-didnt-know-that-already/492575/9 "2009-04-09T23:46:30Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > The concept of being “morally responsible” for the actions of another person that could be conceivably linked to one’s words or ideas is totally different than this concept of personal responsibility. Conceivably linked? The guy listened to Glenn Beck and was spouting talking points from his show! How much more of a link do you need?! ---
**Author:** ![CircleofWillis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/54ee81/32.png) [@CircleofWillis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CircleofWillis)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sinaijon-youre-a-complete-loon-not-that-we-didnt-know-that-already/492575/10 "2009-04-09T23:55:09Z")
[Fucking Beatles and their irresponsible lyrics](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helter_Skelter_(Manson_scenario)) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sinaijon-youre-a-complete-loon-not-that-we-didnt-know-that-already/492575/11 "2009-04-10T00:01:04Z")
> [@CircleofWillis](#): > > [Fucking Beatles and their irresponsible lyrics](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helter_Skelter_(Manson_scenario)) That’s not really the same thing, though, as there’s no rational way to interpret “Helter Skelter” as an instruction to murder someone. There’s a spectrum between a lunatic hallucinating instructions in something innocuous, and someone specifically saying, “Go kill that guy.” Beck falls somewhere in the middle, although closer to the “hallucinating lunatic” side. And the guy with the gun was pretty out there, too. _\_ ---
**Author:** ![CircleofWillis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/54ee81/32.png) [@CircleofWillis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CircleofWillis)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sinaijon-youre-a-complete-loon-not-that-we-didnt-know-that-already/492575/12 "2009-04-10T00:04:34Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > That’s not really the same thing, though, as there’s no rational way to interpret “Helter Skelter” as an instruction to murder someone. There’s a spectrum between a lunatic hallucinating instructions in something innocuous, and someone specifically saying, “Go kill that guy.” Beck falls somewhere in the middle, although closer to the “hallucinating lunatic” side. > > And the guy with the gun was pretty out there, too. _\_ Sure it is.. rational interpretation is in the ear, eye of the beholder…To Charlie.. they WERE saying go out and kill that guy. But Charlie was nucking futs.. like this Poplawski lunatic… Beck is an asshole but is as responsible as Paul McCartney… ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sinaijon-youre-a-complete-loon-not-that-we-didnt-know-that-already/492575/13 "2009-04-10T00:21:04Z")
> [@CircleofWillis](#): > > Sure it is.. rational interpretation is in the ear, eye of the beholder…To Charlie.. they WERE saying go out and kill that guy. Interpretation may be up to the individual, but rationality is defined by popular consensus. > [@](#): > > But Charlie was nucking futs.. like this Poplawski lunatic… Beck is an asshole but is as responsible as Paul McCartney… From what I’ve been reading, Poplawski doesn’t seem to be legally insane. That is, he’s not delusional, and his conclusions are not unreasonable extrapolations from what Beck has said on his show. I’m not sure that Beck bears any moral responsibility for the killings, though, not in the least because of Beck’s apparent mental disability: he’s clearly too stupid to realize the possible ramifications of what he’s saying. ---
**Author:** ![CircleofWillis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/54ee81/32.png) [@CircleofWillis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CircleofWillis)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sinaijon-youre-a-complete-loon-not-that-we-didnt-know-that-already/492575/14 "2009-04-10T00:33:48Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Interpretation may be up to the individual, but rationality is defined by popular consensus. Are saying as Poplawski’s interpretation of Beck can be viewed as rational? > [@Miller](#): > > From what I’ve been reading, Poplawski doesn’t seem to be legally insane. That is, he’s not delusional, and his conclusions are not unreasonable extrapolations from what Beck has said on his show. How are his extrapolations any less unreasonable? I have heard Beck from time to time.. and he is another blowhard political pundit. No different than Coulter or Limbaugh or Rhodes. > [@Miller](#): > > I’m not sure that Beck bears any moral responsibility for the killings, though, not in the least because of Beck’s apparent mental disability: he’s clearly too stupid to realize the possible ramifications of what he’s saying. The stupidity I completely agree with ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sinaijon-youre-a-complete-loon-not-that-we-didnt-know-that-already/492575/15 "2009-04-10T00:51:45Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > Conceivably linked? The guy listened to Glenn Beck and was spouting talking points from his show! How much more of a link do you need?! Well, as I made clear in that thread, I don’t care how close the link is, I find the whole concept of someone being “morally responsible” for the actions pof someone else totally meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sinaijon-youre-a-complete-loon-not-that-we-didnt-know-that-already/492575/16 "2009-04-10T01:05:56Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Well, as I made clear in that thread, I don’t care how close the link is, I find the whole concept of someone being “morally responsible” for the actions pof someone else totally meaningless. Glad to know I can yell fire in Cinema Cliche and, though I may receive some detention, never have to worry about moral approbation. Same goes for hiring a hit man, or lying to some drunken galoot that someone else said his mother smelled funny. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sinaijon-youre-a-complete-loon-not-that-we-didnt-know-that-already/492575/17 "2009-04-10T01:10:55Z")
> [@CircleofWillis](#): > > Are saying as Poplawski’s interpretation of Beck can be viewed as rational? When somebody says that Democrats are all evil communist unAmerican socialists and they’re coming to take all your guns and put your kids in reeducation camps, saying that you’re worried about a gun ban and mandatory national service is not an unreasonable summation. How are his extrapolations any less unreasonable? I have heard Beck from time to time.. and he is another blowhard political pundit. No different than Coulter or Limbaugh or Rhodes. [/quote] And isn’t that a ringing endorsement. The woman who said that women shouldn’t have the right to vote (among many other odious things) and the man who said he hoped Obama would fail, and that every other Republican in the country agreed with him (again, among many other odious things), and Randi Rhodes. Um, what? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sinaijon-youre-a-complete-loon-not-that-we-didnt-know-that-already/492575/18 "2009-04-10T01:22:17Z")
> [@CircleofWillis](#): > > Are saying as Poplawski’s interpretation of Beck can be viewed as rational? His interpretation, yes. His actions, no. Beck has been painting the Obama administration as a direct and immediate threat to our most cherished freedoms, and that we need a revolution to counter him. Beck’s never called for an _armed_ revolution, but I don’t think it’s an unreasonable leap to make that, if Obama is as bad as Beck claims, that one is justified in using deadly force to oppose him. > [@](#): > > How are his extrapolations any less unreasonable? I have heard Beck from time to time.. and he is another blowhard political pundit. No different than Coulter or Limbaugh or Rhodes. Beck, Coulter, and so forth are talking about the government, and saying that the government is doing bad things. Even if you disagree that it’s rational to hear, “The government is evil,” and interpret that as, “I’ve got to defend myself from the government by any means necessary,” at least there is some tenuous connection. Charles Manson heard a song about playing on a slide and interpreted it as an instruction to kill people at random. That’s a whole 'nother order of crazy altogether. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sinaijon-youre-a-complete-loon-not-that-we-didnt-know-that-already/492575/19 "2009-04-10T01:33:41Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > Glad to know I can yell fire in Cinema Cliche and, though I may receive some detention, never have to worry about moral approbation. Same goes for hiring a hit man, or lying to some drunken galoot that someone else said his mother smelled funny. I agree that you would not be “morally responsible” if you did any of those things. You know why? The whole idea of "moral responsibility is a meaningless concept. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sinaijon-youre-a-complete-loon-not-that-we-didnt-know-that-already/492575/20 "2009-04-10T01:36:34Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I agree that you would not be “morally responsible” if you did any of those things. You know why? The whole idea of "moral responsibility is a meaningless concept. Nuh uh. (I figure if all you have to do is blithely assert a point, all I have to do is blithely deny it). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sinaijon-youre-a-complete-loon-not-that-we-didnt-know-that-already/492575.md?page=2)