# Sinatra: Great singer, tiny man **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 1, 2016, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sinatra-great-singer-tiny-man/741887 "2016-01-01T05:27:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sinatra-great-singer-tiny-man/741887/41 "2016-01-01T21:45:09Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > And I feel a lot of the devotion toward him is due to a nostalgia effect also. How much of Elvis’s fame during his Las Vegas days was due to what he was currently doing versus what he had done on the way up and at the top? I always figured it was mostly nostalgia. By all accounts Elvis put on a very good Vegas show and was the top draw for many years (might still hold the record for the highest grossing revenue show in Vegas history). It was more than just nostalgia at that point. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sinatra-great-singer-tiny-man/741887/42 "2016-01-01T22:04:39Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > … However, Willie Nelson, Bob Dylan and Kurt Cobain, lot’s of people say they are not good singers. I think they are, but, … [In this article](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/16/magazine/willie-nelson-the-silver-headed-stranger.html?_r=0), Willie claims Sinatra is his favorite singer. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sinatra-great-singer-tiny-man/741887/43 "2016-01-01T22:14:13Z")
To be fair, in addition to his advocacy of (and active lobbying for) civil rights, Sinatra did do a lot of other good things. A biography I read (it may have been James Kaplan’s “Sinatra - The Chairman”) detailed charitable acts, often performed anonymously (one was the purchase and donation of a bus for a school that had lost theirs in a flood, I think in Ohio). There were many such acts. Often, the beneficiaries didn’t find out the benefactor’s identity until it leaked out years later. This does not erase the ugly things about him: the biography also blew away denials that Sinatra was close to mobsters. Defenders claim that he had no choice but to smile when his picture was being taken with them when he performed at mob-owned venues. The truth was, from early in his career, Sinatra was close to a lot of really nasty criminals, and didn’t mind it at all. In his later, more respected, years, he seemed to hope that if he denied his mob associations persistently and for long enough, eventually, no one would be around to remember them. On balance, a towering talent, deeply flawed, possibly remorseful enough to privately regret and try to atone for his misdeeds. Regarding this talent: there was a SDMB thread that contained a post (from someone more knowledgeable about the subject than I am) explaining Sinatra’s genius as a singer. He had a unique phrasing that made the lyrics more expressive (no surprise that I didn’t know that, because I’m much more moved by melody and harmony than lyrics). As WordMan put it, ‘getting inside a song’. The unique expressiveness of this phrasing can be observed by the microscopic changes in timing it employed: sing along with versions of a song you know well, and then with Sinatra’s version. You will never be able to perfectly synch up with Frank’s. ---
**Author:** ![botsgotme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@botsgotme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/botsgotme)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sinatra-great-singer-tiny-man/741887/44 "2016-01-01T22:15:21Z")
Too bad Sinatra never got cast as Franky Fountain in “The Godfather”. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sinatra-great-singer-tiny-man/741887/45 "2016-01-01T22:17:53Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > - Folks are commenting on how to appreciate Sinatra. Why not discuss it? Because that’s not what I wanted to talk about when I started this thread. If you want to talk about what makes Sinatra a good singer then there are other opportunities to discuss it, and, indeed, it’s a topic that has seen much discussion already. It can be discussed again if someone wants to start a new thread. And what’s wrong is that, as I had feared, it has derailed the topic that I did want to discuss—his character and personality—the majority of posts are now in a topic that my OP specifically stipulated to. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sinatra-great-singer-tiny-man/741887/46 "2016-01-01T22:38:16Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Because that’s not what I wanted to talk about when I started this thread. If you want to talk about what makes Sinatra a good singer then there are other opportunities to discuss it, and, indeed, it’s a topic that has seen much discussion already. It can be discussed again if someone wants to start a new thread. > > And what’s wrong is that, as I had feared, it has derailed the topic that I did want to discuss—his character and personality—the majority of posts are now in a topic that my OP specifically stipulated to. Okay, he was a dick. Next? ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sinatra-great-singer-tiny-man/741887/47 "2016-01-01T22:42:39Z")
Our heroes are like yogurt; the closer you look, the less palatable they become. Sinatra offered himself as a singer and an actor and was quite good at both. While he was mobbed up and a rat with women, he wasn’t devoid of admirable personal qualities. In the 40s, he punched out a restauranteur for refusing to serve a black GI. Marilyn Monroe would’ve handled it better, but that struck me as kind of appropriate. I can’t wait until we start getting the dirt on guys like Bernie Sanders and Howard Zinn. You just know there’s a dark side there, too. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2016, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sinatra-great-singer-tiny-man/741887/48 "2016-01-01T23:04:36Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > To quote a line from an Eagles’ song, “Someone show me how to tell the dancer from the dance.” Oh, those Eagles! What poets they were! One could almost say they were the William Butler Yeats of 1970s California rock! ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sinatra-great-singer-tiny-man/741887/49 "2016-01-02T00:17:01Z")
> [@Horatio\_Hellpop](#): > > I can’t wait until we start getting the dirt on guys like Bernie Sanders and Howard Zinn. You just know there’s a dark side there, too. By all accounts, Bernie Sanders is a cantankerous asshole. But we don’t have generations of people holding him up as a symbol of manhood and class and style. That’s what makes this a particular topic for Sinatra. There is a broad group of people who seek to emulate him because they believe that he’s something worth emulating. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sinatra-great-singer-tiny-man/741887/50 "2016-01-02T00:48:54Z")
John Lennon was mentioned above and was a drunken wifebeating asshole. That doesn’t make his music suck. Hell, all of the Beatles were kind of dicks. Lots of people emulate Sinatra? What is this, the [Tops Casino](http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/The_Tops)? ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sinatra-great-singer-tiny-man/741887/51 "2016-01-02T02:52:06Z")
> [@botsgotme](#): > > Too bad Sinatra never got cast as Franky Fountain in “The Godfather”. Yeah, for several decades of his life, the Chairman could’ve played a good (albeit more volatile) [Crazy Guggenheim](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Fontaine). You’re probably thinking of [Johnny Fontane.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Fontane). ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_s\_Son](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@Jim\_s\_Son](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_s_Son)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sinatra-great-singer-tiny-man/741887/52 "2016-01-02T03:45:21Z")
Nancy Sinatra was asked a few years ago if she knew how much money her father raised for charity in his lifetime. She said they tried to tabulate once but stopped once they got to $1 billion. He had his nasty side and willing hung around mob guys too much (as opposed to Tommy James who had to sign with Morris Levy). But he could also stick up for ordinary little guys. One story I love is Sinatra was at a restaurant where a busboy was fired for dropping dishes. Sinatra gets the manager and busboy over to his table. He has the manager get a tray full of glasses, gives him $100 and the busboy to smash every glass. After he is done, Sinatra tells the manager the busboy better be rehired and working his table every time he comes in or else Sinatra will take his patronage elsewhere. The busboy worked there for a couple more years before voluntarily leaving. ``` One thing Sinatra didn't have was comedic timing, something Dean Martin had. ``` ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sinatra-great-singer-tiny-man/741887/53 "2016-01-02T08:55:52Z")
> [@Jim\_s\_Son](#): > > One thing Sinatra didn’t have was comedic timing, something Dean Martin had. Lauren Bacall, who had an affair with Sinatra, once said during an interview that he had the sense of humor of a linoleum floor pattern. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sinatra-great-singer-tiny-man/741887/54 "2016-01-02T12:00:40Z")
> [@NDP](#): > > Lauren Bacall, who had an affair with Sinatra, once said during an interview that he had the sense of humor of a linoleum floor pattern. Go Betty! That’s funny. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sinatra-great-singer-tiny-man/741887/55 "2016-01-02T13:55:06Z")
> [@Jim\_s\_Son](#): > > ``` > One thing Sinatra didn't have was comedic timing, something Dean Martin had. > > ``` An Italian word, menefreghista, is often used to describe Dino. It, apparently, means “doesn’t give a fuck.” That not giving a fuck lent a cool breeziness to Dean’s performances and persona that were absent from Frank Sinatra’s. Dean gave the impression he took nothing very seriously at all, whereas Frank took everything too seriously, especially himself, as got older. Was Dean a nicer guy than Frank, though? I dunno. Dean not giving a fuck could lead him to be rather cold in his dealings with other people. He doesn’t seem to have been a bully as Sinatra could be. One thing for sure is that they were both nicer men than Jerry Lewis. ---
**Author:** ![Octarine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/22d042/32.png) [@Octarine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Octarine)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sinatra-great-singer-tiny-man/741887/56 "2016-01-02T15:08:21Z")
I expected this thread to be a shocking revelation that Sinatra was short. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sinatra-great-singer-tiny-man/741887/57 "2016-01-02T15:21:23Z")
Frank Sinatra was a gifted singer, a good actor, and a human being. He was totally opposed to racism. When he toured in the south with Sammy Davis Jr. in the early 1960’s, he was totally appalled that some hotels wouldn’t give Davis a room. “You mean he can play here but he can’t stay here?” When the hotel answered in the affirmative, Sinatra would say “Well, if he can’t stay here, we’re not playing here.” He meant it. As for the womanizing, it was considered normal back then. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sinatra-great-singer-tiny-man/741887/58 "2016-01-02T16:27:04Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Since Sinatra’s reputation is 100% founded on his ability to get inside a song, I am once again struck by the fact that he is not the guy for you. > > He inhabits a lyric in a way that you can’t identify with. It happens. This is a post I wish I had the ability to make. Well done, sir. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_s\_Son](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@Jim\_s\_Son](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_s_Son)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sinatra-great-singer-tiny-man/741887/59 "2016-01-02T17:17:50Z")
> [@Octarine](#): > > I expected this thread to be a shocking revelation that Sinatra was short. 😉 One thing that is surprising that in the 1940s cartoons depicted him as very skinny. We don’t think of him that way today. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_s\_Son](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@Jim\_s\_Son](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_s_Son)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2016, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sinatra-great-singer-tiny-man/741887/60 "2016-01-02T17:39:11Z")
> [@Banksiaman](#): > > Some typos happen in the most unfortunate places. > > Having heard the ‘This American Life’ piece his challenge to conventional racist attitudes of the time does come out as his one redeeming feature. His 1974 tour to Australia turned into a fiasco as unions struck over his comments about Australian journalists being bums and hookers. > > [Frank’s rant](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Sinatra:_Live_at_Melbourne_Festival_Hall). Bullying and sledging don’t translate well to different countries, and as much as Australia grovels at the feet of overseas talent, every so often they take a set against them. ``` I remember watching "The Tonight Show" when this happened. Sinatra's friend Joey Bishop was guest-hosting and one guest was the Australian singer Helen Reddy. Reddy said she was on Sinatra's side. She felt the Australian media were small-minded and insecure, ready to pounce on any imagined insult. She advised Bishop that if he ever visited Australia, to immediately tell reporters he that he loved Australia and it is fabulous. The media there, according to Reddy, didn't want logic. Of course Reddy could be a jerk too. Just as long as I never hear "I am Woman" ever again. But Sinatra seemed to be one of these guys who both started fights and had people start fights with him. You don't hear that about Bing Crosby (although Crosby was definitely a far worse father, at least to the children of his first marriage). ``` [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sinatra-great-singer-tiny-man/741887.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sinatra-great-singer-tiny-man/741887.md?page=4)