# Since gold and other metals are elements, can they be irretrievably destroyed? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 14, 2020, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-gold-and-other-metals-are-elements-can-they-be-irretrievably-destroyed/846387 "2020-01-14T04:17:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-gold-and-other-metals-are-elements-can-they-be-irretrievably-destroyed/846387/21 "2020-01-14T17:46:22Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Stable atoms such as gold (and every other type of non-radioactive atom that make up the vast majority of matter we have here on the Earth) are stable enough to be considered virtually eternal. > > They can be changed by powerful forces inside the core of stars, or supernovas, or changed by manmade nuclear reactions, or changes in small amounts by cosmic rays (such as how Carbon 14 is created, the carbon used for carbon dating) > > Other than that, non-radioactive atoms making up the Earth 4 billion years ago are still on the Earth today, and will be on the Earth 4 billions years from now, whether or not we decide to eat or not eat them, or combine them chemically with some other atoms. A dealer once told me my car needed all new copper wiring because the current copper “was old and had never been replaced.” I asked if they meant that some insulation covering the wires was worn or something, but they reiterated that the copper was old. Uh, yeah it is. PS - the car lasted 15 more years on that original copper. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-gold-and-other-metals-are-elements-can-they-be-irretrievably-destroyed/846387/22 "2020-01-14T18:11:29Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > In Alaska gold is mined off the bottom of the ocean just offshore. The divers are connected to a hose that feeds them hot water. They even mine in winter by cutting holes in the ice. I guess the water is not all that much warmer in summer which is their main mining season. I assume that’s just a variation of panning for gold; which came from the fact that as geological action (glaciers, erosion) ground down gold-bearing ore, the silt in the riverbeds - and eventually washed out to sea - contained recoverable quantities of gold. It is in tiny flecks, but being significantly heavier than other rock particles, sloshing around will cause it to settle to the bottom of the pan as the lighter rocks and dirt wash out. I saw a small gold mine once using a variation on this - they had a vibrating table, slightly tilted, with ridges in it - water and ground ore ran across it, and the result after a while was a high amount of gold in the ridges. The shark “scam” IIRC is the thought that there is a very miniscule amount of gold (and many other elements) dissolved in seawater. The problem is (a) extraction and (b) volume (which leads to (c) making it economical.) > [@](#): > > In every cubic mile of sea water there is 25 tons of gold! That’s a total of about 10 billion tons of gold in the oceans; however, there’s no known way to economically recover it. Assuming you could actually recover every bit of gold flowing though your pumps, how long to pump a cubic mile of seawater? There’s 10 pounds of gold in a slice of sea water 1 foot by 1 square mile, or 1 ounce in 174,240 cubic feet - approximately, if I can still do math and ignoring the difference between Avoir and Troy ounces. So the math theory is that you might be able to get a lot of gold, but the devil is in the details. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-gold-and-other-metals-are-elements-can-they-be-irretrievably-destroyed/846387/23 "2020-01-14T18:14:45Z")
I vaguely remember reading a short story (perhaps Roald Dahl, perhaps Arthur C Clarke) about a scientist who developed a sort of submarine that would extract gold from seawater as it traveled from sea to sea. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-gold-and-other-metals-are-elements-can-they-be-irretrievably-destroyed/846387/24 "2020-01-14T20:59:55Z")
Leaving practicality aside, how do you actually get hold of any of the gold that’s in sea water? ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-gold-and-other-metals-are-elements-can-they-be-irretrievably-destroyed/846387/25 "2020-01-14T21:04:04Z")
Stretching the notion of “destroyed” a bit but the “irretrievably” is pretty solid. Say you have an ounce of ordinary gold. Put it and a few kilos of gold together and melt them. Let me know if you have a plan how to retrieve your original gold and leave behind the extra gold. Makes Portia’s pound of flesh argument seem seem simple by comparison. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-gold-and-other-metals-are-elements-can-they-be-irretrievably-destroyed/846387/26 "2020-01-14T22:39:32Z")
That was Clarke. And IIRC, even though it worked, it still wasn’t practical, but it was good enough to fool his competitor into buying him out. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-gold-and-other-metals-are-elements-can-they-be-irretrievably-destroyed/846387/27 "2020-01-14T22:48:25Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > It’s probably possible to fuse multiple atoms of gold into some denser element, like combining hydrogen in regular fusion reactions to create helium, but given that gold is created in supernovas, it’s probably beyond our reach. IANANuclearPhysicist, but for heavy elements you’ll want to fission them, not try to fuse them together. Normal gold is gold-197; trying to fuse two atoms of gold-197 together you’d wind up with something with nearly 400 protons and neutrons in its nucleus (although I suppose the details would be [a bit more complicated than just adding 197 to 197](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Deuterium-tritium_fusion.svg)). I think the heaviest isotope anybody has synthesized is [oganesson-295](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oganesson), and it has a half-life of around 181 milliseconds. Plus, fusing heavy elements would take an [enormous amount of energy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_peak), whereas fissioning them can in principle [_release_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Castle_Bravo_Blast.jpg) enormous amounts of energy. > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > I vaguely remember reading a short story (perhaps Roald Dahl, perhaps Arthur C Clarke) about a scientist who developed a sort of submarine that would extract gold from seawater as it traveled from sea to sea. Arthur Clarke, [“The Man Who Ploughed the Sea”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Who_Ploughed_the_Sea). It was one of his _Tales from the White Hart_ stories, though, which were kind of intentionally written as “scientific tall tales”. ---
**Author:** ![lingyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d2c977/32.png) [@lingyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lingyi)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-gold-and-other-metals-are-elements-can-they-be-irretrievably-destroyed/846387/28 "2020-01-15T04:36:22Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > Stretching the notion of “destroyed” a bit but the “irretrievably” is pretty solid. > > Say you have an ounce of ordinary gold. Put it and a few kilos of gold together and melt them. > > Let me know if you have a plan how to retrieve your original gold and leave behind the extra gold. Makes Portia’s pound of flesh argument seem seem simple by comparison. Here’s a twist to your twist! 😃 What if the gold you put in isn’t pure 9.999999… pure, making the rest of the gold XXX percentage less pure. However, in theory you could extract the non-gold impurities and get closer to 9.999999…purity. :D:eek: ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-gold-and-other-metals-are-elements-can-they-be-irretrievably-destroyed/846387/29 "2020-01-15T04:52:28Z")
> [@lingyi](#): > > The thread about the gold leaf covered steak got me to thinking. I know you’ll just poop out edible gold and “mine” the poop And I know gold can be dissolved by certain acid(s), but is it really gone or can it be retrieved from the acid solution just a you’re able separate gold, silver and other metals with other acid solutions. What I’m still trying to wrap my mind around is: How is gold leaf is edible? I never heard of that. Who would try to eat it, if your steak came wrapped in it? And if you do eat it, then what happens? It’s acid-soluble? Stomachs have hydrochloric acid, one of the stronger acids there is. Does that mean atomic gold is reduced to gold ion soup? How is that not toxic? Does it gold-plate the insides of your intestines? Does it diffuse into your blood? What does your liver to with it? What do your kidneys do with it? Can the gold solute be recovered from your pee (which, come to think of it, is gold already, so how would you know? :eek:) Does it interfere with your neurological functioning? And if so, for the better or worse? Does it cause brain damage? I mean, do people actually _actually eat_ gold leaf? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-gold-and-other-metals-are-elements-can-they-be-irretrievably-destroyed/846387/30 "2020-01-15T04:54:57Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > > > I vaguely remember reading a short story (perhaps Roald Dahl, perhaps Arthur C Clarke) about a scientist who developed a sort of submarine that would extract gold from seawater as it traveled from sea to sea. > > Arthur Clarke, [“The Man Who Ploughed the Sea”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Who_Ploughed_the_Sea). It was one of his _Tales from the White Hart_ stories, though, which were kind of intentionally written as “scientific tall tales”. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-gold-and-other-metals-are-elements-can-they-be-irretrievably-destroyed/846387/31 "2020-01-15T04:55:59Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > What I’m still trying to wrap my mind around is: How is gold leaf is edible? I never heard of that. Who would try to eat it, if your steak came wrapped in it? > > And if you do eat it, then what happens? It’s acid-soluble? Stomachs have hydrochloric acid, one of the stronger acids there is. Does that mean atomic gold is reduced to gold ion soup? How is that not toxic? Does it gold-plate the insides of your intestines? Does it diffuse into your blood? What does your liver to with it? What do your kidneys do with it? Can the gold solute be recovered from your pee (which, come to think of it, is gold already, so how would you know? :eek:) Does it interfere with your neurological functioning? And if so, for the better or worse? Does it cause brain damage? > > I mean, do people actually _actually eat_ gold leaf? The gold leaf just passes through your system and ends up in your toilet (in your shit). ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-gold-and-other-metals-are-elements-can-they-be-irretrievably-destroyed/846387/32 "2020-01-15T05:40:44Z")
Just like silver leaf used as decorations in Indian desserts. ---
**Author:** ![lingyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d2c977/32.png) [@lingyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lingyi)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-gold-and-other-metals-are-elements-can-they-be-irretrievably-destroyed/846387/33 "2020-01-15T06:47:10Z")
The amount of gold in gold leaf is really, really, really, really, really, tiny. Gold and to a lesser extent silver is perfect as an edible metal because of it’s purity and it can be flattened to a really, really, really, thin sheet and still retain it’s shape. "Gold is one of the rarest elements found on the earth and has been sought by people since ancient times. In the massive form it is a soft, yellow metal with the highest ductility and malleability of any element. Thus one ounce of gold can be beaten out to 300 square feet. Gold nearly always occurs in pure or native form. Gold is the most easily worked of all metals. This means that it can be drawn out into fine wires or beaten into sheets so thin that they are almost transparent. At this stage the gold is just a few atoms thick. Gold leaf is defined as a sheet of gold ordinarily varying from four to five millionths of an inch in thickness (0.1 to 0.125 millionths of a meter or micrometers, µm). It is used especially for gilding to cover a surface as decoration. Gilding is used on furniture, walls and religious objects. Gold leaf is made by melting solid gold and mixing in other metals to achieve the desired color. The gold is hammered by hand, until it is so thin that it is nearly weightless and a slightest movement of air will cause it to wrinkle. It will melt between your fingers." Source: [https://hypertextbook.com/facts/1999/JeniferVilfranc.shtml](https://hypertextbook.com/facts/1999/JeniferVilfranc.shtml) ---
**Author:** ![lingyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d2c977/32.png) [@lingyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lingyi)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-gold-and-other-metals-are-elements-can-they-be-irretrievably-destroyed/846387/34 "2020-01-15T07:15:50Z")
Here’s a good video about making gold leaf. Here’s the final steps of the process [https://youtu.be/k7dgrTuCq20](https://youtu.be/k7dgrTuCq20) notice that they’re using a breath of air to set the leaf on the paper. Go back to the beginning to how little gold they started with. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-gold-and-other-metals-are-elements-can-they-be-irretrievably-destroyed/846387/35 "2020-01-15T13:03:41Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > Arthur Clarke, [“The Man Who Ploughed the Sea”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Who_Ploughed_the_Sea). It was one of his _Tales from the White Hart_ stories, though, which were kind of intentionally written as “scientific tall tales”. Clarke also had genetically engineered coral that extracted gold from seawater and used it in their skeletons, in _Imperial Earth_. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-gold-and-other-metals-are-elements-can-they-be-irretrievably-destroyed/846387/36 "2020-01-15T13:33:55Z")
If you don’t want yo spring for the gold steak in the other thread, you could go for a [$25 gold hamburger](https://www.businessinsider.com/hard-rock-cafe-24k-gold-leaf-burger-review-pictures-2019-6) or [$10 gold ice cream](https://soranews24.com/2016/08/04/we-eat-gold-leaf-kinkaku-soft-ice-cream-near-kinkakuji-golden-pavillion-temple-in-kyoto/). ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-gold-and-other-metals-are-elements-can-they-be-irretrievably-destroyed/846387/37 "2020-01-15T13:58:46Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > What I’m still trying to wrap my mind around is: How is gold leaf is edible? I never heard of that. Who would try to eat it, if your steak came wrapped in it? > > And if you do eat it, then what happens? It’s acid-soluble? Stomachs have hydrochloric acid, one of the stronger acids there is. Does that mean atomic gold is reduced to gold ion soup? How is that not toxic? Gold is well known to be impervious to acids. The exception is a mixture of hydrochloric acid and nitric acid, which is called aqua regia (Latin for “royal water”). Since your stomach doesn’t have any nitric acid, eating gold is safe. ---
**Author:** ![Limmin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f04885/32.png) [@Limmin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Limmin)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-gold-and-other-metals-are-elements-can-they-be-irretrievably-destroyed/846387/38 "2020-01-15T19:13:45Z")
As well explained in this thread, gold leaf passes through your system and is not known to cause harm, hence its use as a decoration. Also clearly mentioned is the fact that gold is a very stable element, so it will not be altered in any way by your body. But, this gold is"destroyed" for all practical purposes. By widely distributing it through sewer systems and otherwise uncontrolled into the environment, we are faced with the same problem many gold mines have: you have a huge amount of material with a very low concentration of gold to sift through, in order to mine it. I’ve seen hills of low-concentration “gold ore” in Colorado that was being left as is, because the cost to separate out the tiny amounts of gold and concentrate it was higher than the value of the gold you would gather. So if people can’t economically mine the gold from these hills or sewers or other places, such gold might as well be considered lost and gone forever. ---
**Author:** ![Unpronounceable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9de0a6/32.png) [@Unpronounceable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unpronounceable)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-gold-and-other-metals-are-elements-can-they-be-irretrievably-destroyed/846387/39 "2020-01-15T19:45:38Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Just like silver leaf used as decorations in Indian desserts. Eating silver can potentially eventually turn your skin blue. I don’t know if there’s anything equivalent for gold. ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-gold-and-other-metals-are-elements-can-they-be-irretrievably-destroyed/846387/40 "2020-01-15T19:50:47Z")
> [@Unpronounceable](#): > > Eating silver can potentially eventually turn your skin blue. I don’t know if there’s anything equivalent for gold. Seems unlikely. The first step in developing argyria is when the ingested silver is dissolved in stomach acid. Gold does not dissolve in stomach acid. > **[How silver turns people blue](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/10/121030143029.htm)** > > Researchers have shown for the first time how ingesting too much silver can cause argyria, a rare condition in which patients' skin turns a striking shade of grayish blue. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-gold-and-other-metals-are-elements-can-they-be-irretrievably-destroyed/846387.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-gold-and-other-metals-are-elements-can-they-be-irretrievably-destroyed/846387.md?page=3)