# Since I can't be honest in GD . . . **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 27, 2009, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768 "2009-05-27T02:40:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/21 "2009-05-27T03:43:31Z")
> [@rolandgunslinger](#): > > Let me be honest… > > I believe that if a law was passed that allowed one day a year to be set aside for the killing of anyone who disagreed with you it would be the one day a year you would come out of your basement and start shooting. > That’s how insane I think you are. Honestly. Let me guess. And you think I live with my mother too ? ---
**Author:** ![rolandgunslinger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/cdc98d/32.png) [@rolandgunslinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rolandgunslinger)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/22 "2009-05-27T03:45:48Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Let me guess. And you think I live with my mother too ? I really don’t know dude. But I think your insane and dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/23 "2009-05-27T03:48:54Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > P.S. Good use of the traditional moron’s attack on cultural pluralism "If we have to cleave to tolerance than that means we have to tolerate intolerance. A rather amusing accusation, since that’s one of the standard arguments used by the anti-SSM people to condemn those who call them bigots. You are simply ignoring the fact that calling me a bigot for condemning bigots requires you to say the same of those who condemn others who hold abhorrent beliefs. If, that is you have any interest in logical consistency, which you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/24 "2009-05-27T03:51:05Z")
> [@choie](#): > > But don’t you think this is (at least sometimes, possibly most times) used as a smokescreen? Perhaps not in your case. But where were all these other people who oppose all state-sanctioned marriage before gay marriage came up as an issue? I do think it’s a smoke screen for many, perhaps even for most. But unless he can say so definitively for _all_, the argument that “all opposition = bigotry” fails. I can’t get too worked up over this thread anyway, and will probably wander off. I think both sides are right: I think **Der Trihs** is correct to assign the vast majority of SSM opposition to some level of intolerance of those who are “other” – even if for the religiously minded, they believe their intolerance is required. But I also believe that **Der Trihs** is hands down the biggest bigot on the Boards – not even a close race for second. But just because he’s one, doesn’t mean they’re not too. And I’m no fan of “You don’t like X? Well, Y is _worse_!” I think it’s a bad argument. Yes, he’s a bigot too. Yes, he’s arguably a worse one than they are. Doesn’t mean he’s not mostly right here. Even a blind pig finds an acorn once in a while. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/25 "2009-05-27T03:53:45Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] A rather amusing accusation, since that’s one of the standard arguments used by the anti-SSM people to condemn those who call them bigots. You are simply ignoring the fact that calling me a bigot for condemning bigots requires you to say the same of those who condemn others who hold abhorrent beliefs. [/QUOTE] It’s bigots all the way down! ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/26 "2009-05-27T03:57:00Z")
Try being un-crazy for a tiny fraction of a second. Try to realize that your fungible, comic-book worldview while allows you to spew undifferentiated hate is a sickness of your mind, your character and your perceptual facilities. That it is no different from any other form of bigotry (which, like racism, sexism, etc… is a profound damage of a person’s critical thinking facilities), in that you are unable to look at individuals or the defining characteristics of a group and instead make wild inferences to justify your irrational hatred. Try to realize that even if you believe that all opponents of SSM are wrong, that some may, potentially, be wrong for reasons other than hating gay people. Try real hard to see individual human beings rather than your own deranged, hate-crazed mental froth. Or talk more shit about how I don’t value logical consistency, Frothy McLooneypants. P.S. Kudos to you for starting and staying in what’s most likely going to become yet another Der pitting. I know you tend to stay out of them. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/27 "2009-05-27T03:57:17Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > It’s bigots all the way down! Pretty much, according to my critics logic. If condemning people for holding beliefs you consider evil, that have caused objective harm is “bigotry”, is there anyone who isn’t a bigot ? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/28 "2009-05-27T04:01:23Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > P.S. Kudos to you for starting and staying in what’s most likely going to become yet another Der pitting. I know you tend to stay out of them. If it turns into another festival of lies and threats I’ll leave. I’m not interested in arguing with a dozen people who keep insinuating how they’d like to beat me up, or see me beaten up. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/29 "2009-05-27T04:06:57Z")
No no Frothy, condemning people who hold “evil” (funny term there, again you show us that you are what you hate) views is not bigoted. The problem is that you are _insane_ and cannot tell _evil_ beliefs from someone who holds _different_ beliefs. Sane person: "You, sir, preach the genocide of ethnicity which differ from yours. I hold you to be a practitioner of a morally repugnant ideology| Frothy McLooneypants: “You evil doers are doing evil. Even if you believe that marriage should be governed by the laws of Christian sacraments or are cannot deal with societal change, or whatever… and you have nothing against gays, at all. I hate you, evil doers. I hate you all! You all look the same to me, evil doers!” In before “See, that they’d want marriage to be based off the Christian definition of marriage just shows that Christianity = bigotry and all Christians are bigots and all religion is evil!!!” P.S. I, for one, would not like to see you beaten up. Wise up, lighten up, sober up? Sure. But your mental problems seem like self flagellation enough that you don’t need an external tormentor, tbh. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/30 "2009-05-27T04:09:47Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Pretty much, according to my critics logic. If condemning people for holding beliefs you consider evil, that have caused objective harm is “bigotry”, is there anyone who isn’t a bigot ? But surely you see that the flip side also applies: The religious right also condemns YOU for hold beliefs they consider evil, that they believe have caused objective harm. So if you’re not a bigot under _that_ definition, then neither are they. As you judge them, so must you be judged. You stand and fall together: Either you’re both bigots, or neither of you are. Burns, don’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/31 "2009-05-27T04:10:49Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > No no Frothy, condemning people who hold “evil” (funny term there, again you show us that you are what you hate) views is not bigoted. The problem is that you are _insane_ and cannot tell _evil_ beliefs from someone who holds _different_ beliefs. > > Sane person: "You, sir, preach the genocide of ethnicity which differ from yours. I hold you to be a practitioner of a morally repugnant ideology| > Frothy McLooneypants: “You evil doers are doing evil. Even if you believe that marriage should be governed by the laws of Christian sacraments or are cannot deal with societal change, or whatever… and you have nothing against gays, at all. I hate you, evil doers. I hate you all! You all look the same to me, evil doers!” > > In before "See, that they’d want marriage to be based off the Christian definition of marriage just shows that Christianity = bigotry and all Christians are bigots and all religion is evil!!!| That’s a silly claim. By that logic I’d be crazy for condemning as a bigot someone who rounds up and puts blacks or Jews or whomever in a ghetto just because his religion says so. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/32 "2009-05-27T04:12:32Z")
> [@Jodi](#): > > But surely you see that the flip side also applies: The religious right also condemns YOU for hold beliefs they consider evil, that they believe have caused objective harm. So if you’re not a bigot under _that_ definition, then neither are they. > > As you judge them, so must you be judged. You stand and fall together: Either you’re both bigots, or neither of you are. Burns, don’t it? Not really, since they lack that “objective harm” part. You know, the harm that all over the boards people who support SSM are demanding evidence of from the anti-SSM people. Which they can’t produce, because they are bigots. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/33 "2009-05-27T04:19:17Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Not really, since they lack that “objective harm” part. You know, the harm that all over the boards people who support SSM are demanding evidence of from the anti-SSM people. Which they can’t produce, because they are bigots. They do not believe they lack the objective harm part. They believe the harm is in the undermining of the institution of marriage between one man and one woman, and the institution of family as mother (female), father (male), and 2.5 children. Now, YOU may not buy their arguments or find those arguments sufficiently “objective.” But many muh-_anny_ people do not buy your personal brand of anti-religious nasty craziness for exactly the same reason: they don’t buy your arguments, nor do they find those arguments sufficiently objective. So if they are bigots for failing the objective harm test, then so are you. Hoist on your own petard, so to speak. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/34 "2009-05-27T04:21:20Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > No, they are not. As has already been pointed out to you. The fundamental reasons range from the purely semantic to the homophobic to those based on cultural sensitivities to those based on religion. I don’t see how that necessarily disqualifies them from being bigoted. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/35 "2009-05-27T04:21:55Z")
Frothy, Frothy, Frothy… Every time you try to defend your bigotry you just display, again, how your hatred is based on irrational lunacy. Try to think, real hard, why equating people who believe that marriage should be based on religious laws but the state can set up some sort of lesser form of union are not the same thing as people who forcibly cram people into _concentration camps._ Here is a [visual aid](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZIvgQ9ik48). ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/36 "2009-05-27T04:22:58Z")
> [@Jodi](#): > > They do not believe they lack the objective harm part. They believe the harm is in the undermining of the institution of marriage between one man and one woman, and the institution of family as mother (female), father (male), and 2.5 children. They don’t have any proof that that would happen, or that it would be a bad thing. But proof (or more frequently the lack thereof) rarely bothers these people. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/37 "2009-05-27T04:24:56Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > No, they are not. As has already been pointed out to you. The fundamental reasons range from the purely semantic to the homophobic to those based on cultural sensitivities to those based on religion. [http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bigot](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bigot) > [@](#): > > big⋅ot >   /ˈbɪgət/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [big-uht] Show IPA > –noun > a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion. So how exactly are people who can’t tolerate any definition of marriage but their own, people who can’t tolerate anything they think is icky, and people intolerant of any other religious beliefs on marraige not bigots? Sound like bigots by definition. Either pretty hateful, shallow, or stupid too considering the damage their (at best) foolishness is causing people. > [@](#): > > I certainly would take the same position. Many people opposed, and probably still do oppose, interracial marriage because of reasons based on the best science of the day, based on religious doctrine, based on legal principles and numeorus others. I am a decedent of mixed race unions recent enough that I am only half white. I’d like to know what nonbigoted reason could be wrong with that. Keep in mind I’m healthy, and smart. As mixed race people tend to be just as much as any group. So any “scientific” reasons are pure bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/38 "2009-05-27T04:28:08Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > If it turns into another festival of lies and threats I’ll leave. I’m not interested in arguing with a dozen people who keep insinuating how they’d like to beat me up, or see me beaten up. Seriously, and just asking here, what positive objective do you expect to achieve with this thread? And if it gets up to six pages or so, as these things sometimes do, and you haven’t achieved that objective, will you be at all surprised? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/39 "2009-05-27T04:28:15Z")
> [@Jodi](#): > > They do not believe they lack the objective harm part. They believe the harm is in the undermining of the institution of marriage between one man and one woman, and the institution of family as mother (female), father (male), and 2.5 children. > > Now, YOU may not buy their arguments or find those arguments sufficiently “objective.” But many muh-_anny_ people do not buy your personal brand of anti-religious nasty craziness for exactly the same reason: they don’t buy your arguments, nor do they find those arguments sufficiently objective. > > So if they are bigots for failing the objective harm test, then so are you. Hoist on your own petard, so to speak. No, I’m not. I can point to millions of people who have been hurt, or oppressed or killed in the name of religion. They can’t even come up with a rational reason WHY SSM would harm straight marriage, much less prove that it would do so. They just assert that some unspecified harm will occur in some unspecified fashion. > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Every time you try to defend your bigotry you just display, again, how your hatred is based on irrational lunacy. Try to think, real hard, why equating people who believe that marriage should be based on religious laws but the state can set up some sort of lesser form of union are not the same thing as people who forcibly cram people into _concentration camps._ The only real difference is the level of extremism, and the freedom to act on their bigotry. Just as the people who supported slavery eventually turned to Jim Crow not because they were more enlightened, but because that’s all they could get away with. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/40 "2009-05-27T04:30:17Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Seriously, and just asking here, what positive objective do you expect to achieve with this thread? And if it gets up to six pages or so, as these things sometimes do, and you haven’t acheived that objective, will you be at all surprised? I’ve already achieved my objective, of relieving my frustration by saying what I wasn’t allowed to say in GD. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768.md?page=3)