# Since I can't be honest in GD . . . **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 27, 2009, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768 "2009-05-27T02:40:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/461 "2009-05-29T20:14:01Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > **mswas** ’s defense of course will be that he/she was talking about Communism, not atheism. Except when it comes time to bash atheism again, at which point suddenly Communism = atheism again. Except that’s actually what I said. At no time did I bash atheism. You are turning this around, or trying to. I must stop your dishonest debating tactic. My point was to paint atheism with a broad brush like you do atheism. So nice try, nice tactic. 😉 It’s funny how often you make an emotional appeal to religious persecution to try and deflect an argument that makes you uncomfortable. Atheists are just as responsible for the excesses of communism as Christians are for the lesser excesses of Christianity. Fact: Communism was more oppressively violent over a shorter period of time than Christianity as an institution was over two millenia. Fact: That has fuckall to do with modern atheists just as Christian violence has fuckall to do with modern Christians. But try to turn it into a, ‘help I’m being oppressed.’, whine some more. It’s always funny. You do better when taking the United States to task, because it wouldn’t surprise me if more people were killed in the name of the United States in all of history than were killed in the name of the Catholic church in all of history. Nationalism is much nastier and bloodier than Christianity ever was. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/462 "2009-05-29T20:17:04Z")
ITT:Hitler shows up in compliance with Godwin’s law. Seriously. Don’t we have better things to compare each side of gay marriage with than Hitler? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/463 "2009-05-29T20:23:33Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > ITT:Hitler shows up in compliance with Godwin’s law. > > Seriously. Don’t we have better things to compare each side of gay marriage with than Hitler? Hitler was a Christian don’t’cha know? Just like opponents of gay marriage. That’s relevant, but of course Stalin being an atheist isn’t. Funny how that works right? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/464 "2009-05-29T20:27:40Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Seriously. Don’t we have better things to compare each side of gay marriage with than Hitler? I was kind of wondering what the point of it was, myself, insofar as I’m not expecting gay marriage to lead to pogroms or death camps or whatnot. Yeah, yeah, yeah, commies and Catholics both have blood on their hands. Who cares? I thought we were talking about gay marriage. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/465 "2009-05-29T20:49:46Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Hitler was a Christian don’t’cha know? Just like opponents of gay marriage. That’s relevant, but of course Stalin being an atheist isn’t. Funny how that works right? No it isn’t relevant, that’s the point stupid. I believe Hitler was brought up because you drew an analogy between Atheists and Communists. :rolleyes: Keep deflecting you simpering coward. I’ll note that you still haven’t posted a single reason not rooted in bigotry against SSM. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/466 "2009-05-29T20:51:25Z")
While we’re [on the subject.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11182771&postcount=173) ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/467 "2009-05-29T20:54:10Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Hitler was a Christian don’t’cha know? Just like opponents of gay marriage. That’s relevant, but of course Stalin being an atheist isn’t. Funny how that works right? My god this is tedious. There’s a common thread folks. It’s fundamentalism. The belief that one is the sole possessor of the truth, and that anyone who does not believe it is evil. The 9/11 hijackers were bad because they were fundamentalist, not because they were Muslim. The crusaders were bad because they were fundamentalist christians. Stalin was bad because he was a political fundamentalist. Fundamentalist adherence to any belief, religious or political, is the common thread here, and the real danger. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/468 "2009-05-29T20:56:23Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Hitler was a Christian don’t’cha know? Just like opponents of gay marriage. That’s relevant, but of course Stalin being an atheist isn’t. Funny how that works right? Wtf does Stalin have to do with gay marriage either? Did he propose to Hitler? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/469 "2009-05-29T21:01:03Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > Wrapping yourself in a rainbow flag and screaming at the “breeders” will not change the mind of Mike the electrician in your favor. However having a beer and shaking hands with Mike and saying “look, just like you, I want to have a spouse, a familiy, and everything that goes with it, get to know me and you’ll see we’re similar” just might change his mind FOR SSM instead of against it. Or he’ll just beat you to death, since he’s a bigot. If he’s against SSM, then he’s an _ **enemy** _ of homosexuals. Not just someone with a mild disagreement, but someone who wants to deny them something that even multiple murderers are allowed. I see no reason to think someone like that is going to respond to talk. Or that he’s safe to talk to. > [@buttonjockey308](#): > > It doesn’t matter just for the sake of time, but it matters because it takes people a while to accept certian ideas as real, let alone accept them as ‘good’. The process of this type of social change is a long one because it needs to be for the change to be real and permanent. It’s no different from the economy, actually. Meteoric rise is almost always followed by an epic fall. Better, I think, to gradually climb the hill, taking as many as you can with you than take the helicopter to hte top and find out the top isn’t suitable for standing. This gotta-have-it-and-right-now mentality reduces the depth of the struggle to news bytes and fodder for talking heads. No. You get it right now, or you don’t get it at all. Again, despite you disliking the comparison that’s one lesson of the struggle for black civil rights. Waiting for decades under segregation just got them decades of segregation. It was _ **demanding** _ civil rights, NOW that got them what they wanted. > [@mazinger\_z](#): > > Well, there is no national law now. I’m proposing a national law. What if the two laws were the same, just that gay couples were called civil unions? It’s not that hard to amend. Who gives a shit if gays are allowed the same rights and benefits of married couples? Again, there aren’t two sets of governments to deal with, no separate drinking fountains, no separate trains or seats or entrances, etc. First, they never WOULD be the same. The one and only reason for having two sets of laws is to enforce bigotry. One reason it’s important to call those who oppose SSM bigots is to keep in mind that they are _ **malignant** _. That they are not reasonable people looking for a reasonable solution, but motivated by a desire to inflict harm. Because if they WERE reasonable people, they wouldn’t be anti-SSM. Second, the institution of marriage is recognized everywhere, civil unions are not. Nor is a particular place’s civil union necessarily recognized elsewhere. Nor do civil unions have the body of law backing them that marriage do. It’s just not possible to make them equivalent even if there was a serious attempt. And third, if you set of two different sets of laws, you ARE setting up two separate “sets of governments” or at least of laws. And there’s no reason to think that they would stay the same, much less equal. Especially since inequality is the point. > [@buttonjockey308](#): > > As far as constitutional rights, the constitution is the manifestation of the will of the people, so the majority absolutely gets to decide. I personally don’t see marriage as a fundamental human right, rather as something that’s been constructed by society and therefore regulated by society, albeit wrongly at this point I rather suspect your view on marriage being a right would differ if you were the one being forbidden to marry your loved one. And part of of the point of the constitution is to protect the minority from the majority; by your logic we should chuck out such little things as the First Amendment. > [@mswas](#): > > Except that’s actually what I said. At no time did I bash atheism. Of course you did, and have with your clearly false claim of equivalence between atheism and communism. > [@mswas](#): > > Atheists are just as responsible for the excesses of communism as Christians are for the lesser excesses of Christianity. No, they aren’t. If they are, then why are the Communists the only atheist group you can point to as behaving like that ? As opposed to Christianity; it’s not like the evils commited by Christians were only commited by, say, Catholics. > [@mswas](#): > > Fact: Communism was more oppressively violent over a shorter period of time than Christianity as an institution was over two millenia. No, the Communists were just more recent in memory and subject to less whitewashing. > [@](#): > > Fact: That has fuckall to do with modern atheists just as Christian violence has fuckall to do with modern Christians. Wrong again; communism as an ideology is nearly dead, and Christianity is still alive, well, and oppressing and killing. > [@mswas](#): > > But try to turn it into a, ‘help I’m being oppressed.’, whine some more. It’s always funny. Oh, I doubt it. You’re just trolling again. > [@mswas](#): > > You do better when taking the United States to task, because it wouldn’t surprise me if more people were killed in the name of the United States in all of history than were killed in the name of the Catholic church in all of history. And a great deal of that was done in God’s name. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/470 "2009-05-29T21:01:38Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Wtf does Stalin have to do with gay marriage either? Did he propose to Hitler? Stalin was strongly anti-gay. So I suppose he has something in common with those who oppose gay marriage. I’m kidding of course, but that’s why this whole line of debate is worthless. Mswas and Magellan have no arguments that don’t boil down to, “It will piss off bigots.” Interracial marriage pissed off bigots too. So did freeing slaves. So did school integration. So did a Catholic president. So did a Jew on the supreme court. So did women voting. Pissing off bigots is when America shines. Pissing off bigots is what is \*best \*about America. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/471 "2009-05-29T21:16:56Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > No it isn’t relevant, that’s the point stupid. I believe Hitler was brought up because you drew an analogy between Atheists and Communists. :rolleyes: Actually it’s the other way around. I brought up communism and atheism because people were talking about the great Christian scourge. \ ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/472 "2009-05-29T21:18:31Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I was kind of wondering what the point of it was, myself, insofar as I’m not expecting gay marriage to lead to pogroms or death camps or whatnot. > Yeah, yeah, yeah, commies and Catholics both have blood on their hands. Who cares? I thought we were talking about gay marriage. Should we follow this back to its source since it was you who started talking about the blood on the hands of Christians? And then of course **Der Trihs** ran with it? God you guys are so dishonest in your tactics. Bring something up and then say, “I don’t understand why anyone is talking about that.” Does your Mom know you’re such a liar? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/473 "2009-05-29T21:19:39Z")
> [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](#): > > My god this is tedious. There’s a common thread folks. It’s fundamentalism. The belief that one is the sole possessor of the truth, and that anyone who does not believe it is evil. The 9/11 hijackers were bad because they were fundamentalist, not because they were Muslim. The crusaders were bad because they were fundamentalist christians. Stalin was bad because he was a political fundamentalist. Fundamentalist adherence to any belief, religious or political, is the common thread here, and the real danger. So would you say that anyone who believes this way is a…gasp…bigot? Because really the important thing is to establish whether or not **Der Trihs** is a bigot. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/474 "2009-05-29T21:22:19Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Should we follow this back to its source since it was you who started talking about the blood on the hands of Christians? And then of course **Der Trihs** ran with it? God you guys are so dishonest in your tactics. Bring something up and then say, “I don’t understand why anyone is talking about that.” > > Does your Mom know you’re such a liar? 😃 Does your mom know that drinking during pregnancy can cause soft-headed babies like you? 😃 Any chance you have an argument against SSM that doesn’t boil down to bigotry? I await your cowardly deflection. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/475 "2009-05-29T21:22:51Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Of course you did, and have with your clearly false claim of equivalence between atheism and communism. > > No, they aren’t. If they are, then why are the Communists the only atheist group you can point to as behaving like that ? As opposed to Christianity; it’s not like the evils commited by Christians were only commited by, say, Catholics. Because it’s the only example of atheists ever having power…duh. > [@](#): > > No, the Communists were just more recent in memory and subject to less whitewashing. No, in sheer numbers, Communists were more violent than Christians hands down. No comparison. Show me any other ideology EVER that killed 50,000,000 people over the course of about 30 years. Not even the Nazis were as prolific as Stalin and Mao. > [@](#): > > Wrong again; communism as an ideology is nearly dead, and Christianity is still alive, well, and oppressing and killing. Well thank Jesus for that. 😉 And please give me a cite of where Christianity is still oppressively killing. > [@](#): > > Oh, I doubt it. You’re just trolling again. Look who’s talking, bigot. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/476 "2009-05-29T21:24:00Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Does your mom know that drinking during pregnancy can cause soft-headed babies like you? 😃 > > Any chance you have an argument against SSM that doesn’t boil down to bigotry? > > I await your cowardly deflection. I am smarter than you, and I know that cowardice doesn’t apply here. 😉 Does that work for the other 12 kids on your school bus? Does some kid in a helmet get up and say, “I..am…not…a…cow..ard.”, and start flailing at you? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/477 "2009-05-29T21:26:20Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I am smarter than you, and I know that cowardice doesn’t apply here. 😉 Does that work for the other 12 kids on your school bus? Does some kid in a helmet get up and say, “I..am…not…a…cow..ard.”, and start flailing at you? One more time: Do you have an argument against SSM that doesn’t involve bigotry? I await your cowardly deflection. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/478 "2009-05-29T21:44:15Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > One more time: > > Do you have an argument against SSM that doesn’t involve bigotry? > > I await your cowardly deflection. There is none kind sir. I bow in awe before your mighty [helmet](http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/images/darkhelmet.jpg)! ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/479 "2009-05-29T21:45:14Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Mswas and Magellan have no arguments that don’t boil down to, “It will piss off bigots.” > > Interracial marriage pissed off bigots too. So did freeing slaves. So did school integration. So did a Catholic president. So did a Jew on the supreme court. So did women voting. Pissing off bigots is when America shines. Pissing off bigots is what is \*best \*about America. Absolutely correct. Or, to put it a bit more mildly, "it will piss off a subset of “traditional Christians” Imagine that; A federal law that does not kowtow to the desires of a subset of a particular religion! Of course, what passes for debate among this ilk is to simply call those who disagree with their poor logic and reasoning “fucking morons”, or play the “you simply don’t understand my towering intellect” card. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/480 "2009-05-29T21:47:23Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Absolutely correct. > > Or, to put it a bit more mildly, "it will piss off a subset of “traditional Christians” Imagine that; A federal law that does not kowtow to the desires of a subset of a particular religion! > > Of course, what passes for debate among this ilk is to simply call those who disagree with their poor logic and reasoning “fucking morons”, or play the “you simply don’t understand my towering intellect” card. LOL, it’s so cute, it’s trying to cajole someone into agreeing with them. No! You cannot defeat me! Only \*\*Lobohan \*\*and his Helmet can defeat me! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768.md?page=25)