# Since I can't be honest in GD . . . **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 27, 2009, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768 "2009-05-27T02:40:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/501 "2009-05-29T23:35:46Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > We get your argument. We understand it. Fully. We re-state your argument in different forms, not because we don’t understand it, but because it’s hard to believe that you think that it is worth more than a pail of warm spit. Hey, if you were in the desert dying of thirst, that bucket of warm spit could save your life, so don’t sell spit short. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/502 "2009-05-29T23:47:24Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Ahh I see. Well what is their reasoning for why a religiously neutral government, by it’s very founding definitions, should listen to them? > > If it’s “our book says so and we can’t tolerate any noncompliance with that book” then yes it’s a bigoted reason, and while they’re free to advocate it, the government has no business listening. After some thought and reading this thread I’d further like to add a bigoted reason for a single issue does not a bigoted person make. If I believed in the God presented in the bible, particularly the old testament, I’d be scared shitless into complying too. It’d be understandably human. Still the government has a duty to let people decide which, if any, book personally scares them shitless, and not play favorites. Didn’t Jesus say render onto Caesar what’s Caesar’s? State definitions of marriage are Caesar’s domain, and even if they’re not the State has no business listening to anyone say any different. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2009, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/503 "2009-05-29T23:52:28Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > The reason I piss people off is because they really just want those threads to be self-congratulatory echo chambers Wait–did you seriously just criticize someone else for being self-congratulatory? Really? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/504 "2009-05-30T00:45:01Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > So, don’t claim that the Communists weren’t violent, they were. I said no such thing. I said that as far as I recall most of those deaths were due to starvation, mainly due to ideology overriding good agricultural practice. Rather like theology overriding good medical practice and abetting the spread of AIDS. > [@mswas](#): > > No that’s not a thread about that. That’s just another, ‘let’s poke fun at the evil bigotted Evangelicals’ thread. Just like all the gay marriage threads are. The reason I piss people off is because they really just want those threads to be self-congratulatory echo chambers where everyone agrees that Conservatives are EEEEVVVILLLL, but then I come along, and they can’t make personal attacks like they can make against Magellan, but they really really really want to so badly. They want me to be their Evangelical Pinata that they can beat the living shit out of, in a more rational and open-minded way of course. Remember you are the liberals! You are the open-minded good guys! You’re fighting the good fight against the bigots! > > I pissed everyone off because I questioned their self-righteous moral authority, and for no other reason. No, it’s because you are either a troll, or a liar in a forum where people aren’t allowed to point it out. Even less honest than **Magellan01** , who at least _ **admits** _ he’s anti SSM. And your arguments are stupid, empty, and evasive. The reason that such threads are one sided without you coming in and throwing out stupid arguments, is that there ARE no good reasons for opposing SSM. And the reason that opponents should be characterized as bigots is because they are. And that’s important to keep in mind of someone. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/505 "2009-05-30T00:53:41Z")
I think bigot is the exact correct word, and I’ve looked it up. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/506 "2009-05-30T00:55:23Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I would guess that it is because your argument is so weak. Very weak. > > People (not just me) are basically saying “is that all you’ve got?” > > We get your argument. We understand it. Fully. We re-state your argument in different forms, not because we don’t understand it, but because it’s hard to believe that you think that it is worth more than a pail of warm spit. > > That, and the fact that you argue in a very belligerent fashion make for a bad combination. Right, you don’t value the thing that is being lost, so you find any way to belittle the people who value it. I know, I understand your point of view perfectly also. Glad we understand each other. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/507 "2009-05-30T00:56:24Z")
I’m prepared to accept the possibility that mswas really is playing devil’s advocate. The trouble is, he’s _bad_ at it, in that he’s not offering any new arguments and getting far too personally invested, letting personal insults slip in GD and such. I could understand the one-off outburst, [calling someone a “fucking moron”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11188660&postcount=536), but lately his position has degenerated largely into implying opponents are simply too stupid to understand his argument. A devil’s advocate should know when to take a deep breath. I’m seriously considering switching sides and presenting his case for him, just to show how it could be done dispassionately and analytically and preferably without calling people morons, fucking or otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/508 "2009-05-30T00:57:40Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, it’s because you are either a troll, or a liar in a forum where people aren’t allowed to point it out. Even less honest than **Magellan01** , who at least _ **admits** _ he’s anti SSM. And your arguments are stupid, empty, and evasive. And yet I haven’t evaded a damn thing. The word evasive has a real meaning you know. It’s not just something you can throw at any argument you disapprove of. Or by evasive do you mean, "difficult to pigeonhole and use as an outlet for my own bigotry? > [@](#): > > The reason that such threads are one sided without you coming in and throwing out stupid arguments, is that there ARE no good reasons for opposing SSM. And the reason that opponents should be characterized as bigots is because they are. And that’s important to keep in mind of someone. LOL, right, no “GOOD” reasons. I know, you guys are the good guys. I get it. 😉 But you aren’t saying anything useful when you call them bigots. You’ll notice I didn’t say they aren’t bigots. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/509 "2009-05-30T01:04:00Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’m prepared to accept the possibility that mswas really is playing devil’s advocate. The trouble is, he’s _bad_ at it, in that he’s not offering any new arguments and getting far too personally invested, letting personal insults slip in GD and such. I could understand the one-off outburst, [calling someone a “fucking moron”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11188660&postcount=536), but lately his position has degenerated largely into implying opponents are simply too stupid to understand his argument. A devil’s advocate should know when to take a deep breath. I called someone a fucking moron because he was being a troll. He kept asking me to say something I wasn’t saying and trying to put words in my mouth. Really, you guys got it a long time ago. I made my case hundreds of posts ago, and you got it, you really got it. So you can hardly accuse me of being horrible at presenting my case. If anything I am just susceptible to trolls when I should recognize that it’s all that you are doing. > [@](#): > > I’m seriously considering switching sides and presenting his case for him, just to show how it could be done dispassionately and analytically and preferably without calling people morons, fucking or otherwise. You are terrible at presenting the case dispassionately. That’s why you dismiss intangibles when it is the intangibles the side you have contempt for care about, but you accept intangibles when it is on the side you do care about. IE, Love for religion is invalid, but love for an individual is valid. I don’t think you COULD make the argument, because you have a double-standard. You’ll notice that Post 4 of this thread clearly restates my position. So obviously I made my case just fine for **Happy Scrappy Hero Pup**. Then a few posts later \*\*Tomndebb \*\*states it as well. Your argument hasn’t even been pro-SSM it has been about the right to dismiss a whole side of an argument with the word, ‘bigotry’. You’ve been arguing that ignorance is a virtue. And saying I didn’t make my case well is rank nonsense. I’ll just cite post 4 of this thread from now on when someone uses that stupid line. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/510 "2009-05-30T01:06:10Z")
> [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](#): > > The first half… could also describe you. > > The first half also does NOT describe those like **mswas** , who favors SSM but wants a more logically consistent reasoning in support. > > The second half… does not describe those who oppose SSM on financial grounds, among others. > Are people who oppose SSM shortsighted? I certainly think so. > > Are they all, to a man, uniformly motivated by intolerance and hate? Of course not. > > But you knew that already, didn’t you? > > And if you didn’t, then my GOODNESS, man, but how do you _function?_ Proof that I made my case perfectly well by Tuesday at 8:54 PM, I am assuming Central Time. When I explained this discussion to my wife, she understood it just fine the first time. As I think did most of you. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/511 "2009-05-30T01:08:06Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Right, you don’t value the thing that is being lost, so you find any way to belittle the people who value it. Nothing is being lost. Which is unfortunate, since they are such vile people. > [@mswas](#): > > LOL, right, no “GOOD” reasons. I know, you guys are the good guys. I get it. 😉 But you aren’t saying anything useful when you call them bigots. You’ll notice I didn’t say they aren’t bigots. Of course it’s useful to realize your enemy is a bigot. And you’ve come up with plenty of weaselling excuses for their bigotry, regardless of whether you said they are not bigots". And if you DO think they are bigots and are defending them, that simply means you are scum. Yes, we are the good guys. And yes, the other side is evil. Not just wrong, but _evil_, motivated by malice. Thus the word “bigot”, specifying the variety of evil they are. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/512 "2009-05-30T01:10:03Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Nothing is being lost. Which is unfortunate, since they are such vile people. Yes, something is being lost. You actually I’ll give a pass to, I really believe honestly that YOU do not understand. **Lobohan** , **Bryan Ekers** and the rest, I think they are just trolling. > [@](#): > > Of course it’s useful to realize your enemy is a bigot. And you’ve come up with plenty of weaselling excuses for their bigotry, regardless of whether you said they are not bigots". Yes, though I recognize that you are a hateful bigot, I still am interested in what makes you tick. > [@](#): > > And if you DO think they are bigots and are defending them, that simply means you are scum. LOL. I don’t think they are ONLY bigots. Not only does my world have shades of grey it also has a full spectrum. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/513 "2009-05-30T01:14:23Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Yes, though I recognize that you are a hateful bigot, I still am interested in what makes you tick. Trolling again. > [@mswas](#): > > LOL. I don’t think they are ONLY bigots. So what ? Jeffery Dahmer wasn’t ONLY a cannibal, but that little habit kind of outshone everything else. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/514 "2009-05-30T01:19:51Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Yes, something is being lost. What specifically? Are they being forced to have a gay marriage? If not then what? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/515 "2009-05-30T01:21:20Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > What specifically? Are they being forced to have a gay marriage? If not then what? Their shared morality being mainstream and not considered a fringe bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/516 "2009-05-30T01:22:30Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Trolling again. No, you REALLY ARE a bigot. I mean this is the pit, the entire point of posting here is to troll. You started the OP to Troll. > [@](#): > > So what ? Jeffery Dahmer wasn’t ONLY a cannibal, but that little habit kind of outshone everything else. Well luckily for you, we forget how much you hate most of the people in the country you inhabit when we meet in Cafe Society to talk about Science Fiction, right? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/517 "2009-05-30T01:26:50Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Their shared morality being mainstream and not considered a fringe bigotry. So they want to be a State backed religion? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/518 "2009-05-30T01:29:52Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > So they want to be a State backed religion? Of course they do. But in the past their moral beliefs were mainstream culturally without it having to be legislated. That is what is being lost, or really at this point HAS BEEN lost, but they are still resisting the change that has already occurred. As I’ve stated before this is the final phase of the sexual revolution, IMO. They lost the war already, this is just the cherry on top of that loss. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/519 "2009-05-30T01:36:32Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > No, you REALLY ARE a bigot. I mean this is the pit, the entire point of posting here is to troll. You started the OP to Troll. No, I’m not, and no I didn’t. I started this thread to say something I wasn’t allowed to in GD. And calling a belief system like Christianity evil isn’t bigotry any more than calling Communism evil is bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2009, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/520 "2009-05-30T01:38:14Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No, I’m not, and no I didn’t. I started this thread to say something I wasn’t allowed to in GD. And calling a belief system like Christianity evil isn’t bigotry any more than calling Communism evil is bigotry. Right you wanted to use trollish name-calling and were pissed off that a mod ruled that out of bounds in Great Debates. You got pissed off that you weren’t able to lower the discourse to your liking. You hate individual people for being Christians. I hate Communism, but I don’t hate individual Communists. Though I will concede it’s a fair point, hating Christianity itself isn’t bigotry in and of itself. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768.md?page=27)