# Since I can't be honest in GD . . . **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 27, 2009, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768 "2009-05-27T02:40:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 36
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/701 "2009-06-03T20:44:29Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > But will it? > > And in any case, the President can’t enact national same-sex marriage by the stroke of a pen. Sure, he can issue executive orders, which are orders to the agents of the federal executive branch. But those executive orders aren’t binding on state governments, or the federal judiciary, or the legislative branch. And they can’t violate laws enacted by the legislature. And an executive order requiring recognition of gay marriage would violate DOMA ([Defense of Marriage Act - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_Marriage_Act)). > > Note that Obama could change policy in the military such as Don’t Ask/Don’t Tell by executive order, since he’s commander in chief of the military, and he hasn’t done anything about it in the 6 months he’s been president. Why does DOMA have to be carved in stone? Can’t it be reversed? With regard to DADT, I’m confident he’ll do it eventually. In fact, I’d be very surprised if he doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2009, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/702 "2009-06-03T22:07:12Z")
Of course DOMA can be reversed, but it can’t be reversed by executive order. Obama can reverse executive orders issued by previous presidents, but he can’t nullify legislation. DOMA is a law passed by congress, not an executive order. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/703 "2009-06-04T00:01:22Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Why does DOMA have to be carved in stone? Can’t it be reversed? With regard to DADT, I’m confident he’ll do it eventually. In fact, I’d be very surprised if he doesn’t. So what’s your plan to FORCE Congress to repeal DOMA? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/704 "2009-06-04T00:11:36Z")
> [@Carol\_Stream](#): > > So what’s your plan to FORCE Congress to repeal DOMA? Threaten protests, and to send money and votes to their opponents of course. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/705 "2009-06-04T00:18:26Z")
Threaten to make them get gay-married, of course. Apparently it’s a compelling threat. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/706 "2009-06-04T00:21:07Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Threaten protests, and to send money and votes to their opponents of course. Protests, campaign contributions, and voting aren’t force. kalhoun said that SSM should be forced upon the nation. How does she plan on doing that? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/707 "2009-06-04T00:23:24Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Threaten protests, and to send money and votes to their opponents of course. What if their opponent is also against SSM? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/708 "2009-06-04T00:37:27Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Threaten protests, and to send money and votes to their opponents of course. But that’s just the normal democratic sausage factory in all its majestic splendor. That isn’t forcing gay marriage on an unwilling country, that’s convincing politicians that it is in their best interest to support SSM. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/709 "2009-06-04T00:45:28Z")
> [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > What if their opponent is also against SSM? Then you threaten to withhold support from either. > [@Lemur866](#): > > But that’s just the normal democratic sausage factory in all its majestic splendor. That isn’t forcing gay marriage on an unwilling country, that’s convincing politicians that it is in their best interest to support SSM. Repealing DOMA isn’t about forcing SSM on anyone. And that’s about as close as we are going to get to “force” from the left. Political violence or threats of it beyond property damage are almost exclusively a hallmark of the right these days in America. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/710 "2009-06-04T01:49:55Z")
Well then, we agree. How about we convince people that DOMA was a stupid law that should be repealed, and when we convince enough of them we’ll repeal DOMA. It’s not complicated. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/711 "2009-06-04T02:17:50Z")
I think you got a pretty peculiar situation, here. You got a well-meaning majority who favor some form of “gay marriage”, but its like a shrugging “Yeah, sure, why not?”. Tolerance, even acceptance, but no special enthusiasm. They mildly favor gay equality, but won’t necessarily vote against you if you don’t wholly concur. Opposed, you have a passionate minority, motivated as all git out. No tolerance, no acceptance, bubbling with darth energy. Bad mojo. And they sure as shit _will_ vote against you! So its not so much a question of the electorate. If the electorate were offered a “civil union” law tomorrow, and didn’t have to leave the house to vote, it would be in. The extreme and the excited throw inordinate power because the rest of us are pretty much apathetic. Tolerant, well intended, but not charged up. Upside: eventual success. Downside: its taking longer than we thought. Always does, pretty much. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/712 "2009-06-04T02:57:54Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > Wiki says that the Emancipation Proclamation was an executive order that public opinion was against. I’m no Civil War scholar, but this seems to be an important exception to the idea that we need to convince either the people or the legislature to do the right thing. We can just fucking do it. The Emancipation Proclamation was a wartime edict that only affected those parts of the country in active rebellion against the nation. It had no bearing on slaves held in slave states that had not seceeded, such as Maryland. It was also issued seventeen months into a war that went on for an additional thirty months, during which time the point of the Proclamation was reinforced constantly through newspapers favoring the Union, eventually becoming the rallying cry and being adopted by the Federal government as a moral purpose for the war. I doubt that we could encourage any states to seceed for the sole purpose of having the president declare SSM legal in their territories and I suspect that such an action would not get a lot of traction in the states not in secession. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/713 "2009-06-04T11:08:33Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Of course DOMA can be reversed, but it can’t be reversed by executive order. Obama can reverse executive orders issued by previous presidents, but he can’t nullify legislation. DOMA is a law passed by congress, not an executive order. Then we appeal and protest and campaign. I understand the solution is not the simple stroke of a pen, but it’s not a permanent roadblock to SSM. It was a mistake that CAN be reversed. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/714 "2009-06-04T11:31:14Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Then you threaten to withhold support from either. Maybe I’m cynical, but if you’re not supporting him or his opponent, why should he care? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/715 "2009-06-04T11:41:49Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > The Emancipation Proclamation was a wartime edict that only affected those parts of the country in active rebellion against the nation. It had no bearing on slaves held in slave states that had not seceeded, such as Maryland. It was also issued seventeen months into a war that went on for an additional thirty months, during which time the point of the Proclamation was reinforced constantly through newspapers favoring the Union, eventually becoming the rallying cry and being adopted by the Federal government as a moral purpose for the war. > I doubt that we could encourage any states to seceed for the sole purpose of having the president declare SSM legal in their territories and I suspect that such an action would not get a lot of traction in the states not in secession. I think the Proclamation served its purpose. I’m pissed that Obama’s been as silent about the issue as he’s been. I, for one, don’t believe he’s REALLY against SSM. It’s a political thing. There are other things on his agenda that require more unity to accomplish and he’s aware that a strong voice in favor of a currently-unpopular issue would hurt his ability to tackle the other issues. He can start the rallying cry. I hope he will. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/716 "2009-06-04T12:20:57Z")
> [@Lord\_Ashtar](#): > > Maybe I’m cynical, but if you’re not supporting him or his opponent, why should he care? Because he wants more money and support. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/717 "2009-06-04T14:21:17Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > the President can’t enact national same-sex marriage by the stroke of a pen. The stroke of a pen is mightier than a sword. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/718 "2009-06-04T14:44:45Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because he wants more money and support. He probably would have already done market analysis to determine what the majority of the people want, and would likely be going along with that since it would get him the most votes. So you’re left with voting third party or not at all. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2009, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/719 "2009-06-04T17:06:00Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > I think the Proclamation served its purpose. I’m pissed that Obama’s been as silent about the issue as he’s been. I, for one, don’t believe he’s REALLY against SSM. It’s a political thing. There are other things on his agenda that require more unity to accomplish and he’s aware that a strong voice in favor of a currently-unpopular issue would hurt his ability to tackle the other issues. I’m really hoping that’s the case. I have this growing nagging fear that he’s going to turn out to be a crypto-fundamentalist (Christian, not Muslim) and is going to drag his feet on gay issues for as long as possible. Still, it’s early days (not that that helps Dan Choi at all)and things could change… ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2009, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/720 "2009-06-05T04:03:44Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > I, for one, don’t believe he’s REALLY against SSM. It’s a political thing. There are other things on his agenda that require more unity to accomplish and he’s aware that a strong voice in favor of a currently-unpopular issue would hurt his ability to tackle the other issues. So you think he’s being weaselly on this issue? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768.md?page=35) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768.md?page=37)