# Since I can't be honest in GD . . . **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 27, 2009, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768 "2009-05-27T02:40:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/101 "2009-05-27T08:42:25Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > I repeat: Cite, you uninformed asshole?! How fucking dense are you? This is hypothetical situation you ignoramous. It didn’t actually happen. PMSL. You are one thick bastard Olentzero. I’m gonna have to bookmark this thread for future reference. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/102 "2009-05-27T08:48:03Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > How fucking dense are you? > > This is hypothetical situation you ignoramus. It didn’t actually happen. > > Spelling corrected -O. So you’re making up “scientific facts” out of whole cloth, to back up a situation that doesn’t exist, in order to prove that someone can make bigoted arguments without necessarily being a bigot. Fucking troll. What future reference are you going to bookmark this thread for, to show your grandchildren how you came this close to proving you had a negative IQ when you were younger? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/103 "2009-05-27T08:50:00Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > How fucking dense are you? > > This is hypothetical situation you ignoramous. It didn’t actually happen. > > PMSL. > You are one thick bastard Olentzero. I’m gonna have to bookmark this thread for future reference. Hey Blake. Any luck on that argument? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/104 "2009-05-27T08:51:31Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Seems the “point of the thread” is that **Der** wants to call people bigots, and isn’t allowed because the word is too inflamatory. Well, maybe it is, maybe it isn’t. To me, its pretty hard to dial to eleven past something like that, if I believed in “fighting words”, that one would be pretty darn close. > > Those of us of an age, remember serious bigotry, bigotry not just about who you could marry, but whether you could work. Whether you could vote. Hell, whether you could live. > > And try as I will, I can’t see squabbling over “marriage” or “civil union” rising to that level of horror. > > Anyway, he can come in here and call somebody a bigot, I’m sure he feels much better now. And maybe its like the word “pimp”, the meaning has changed, and I didn’t keep up. I see confusion, I see discomfort with change. I see uncertainty in the face of change. But bigotry? Not even close, nothing I’ve seen on these boards gets within a hundred miles of Bull Connor or George Lincoln Rockwell, or the White Citizens Council. > > But if you have to hate something, well, then hate bigotry, I guess. If you have to. At last! A post by **elucidator** that I can get behind. (So you might want to rethink that one, **luci**.) 😉 > [@Olentzero](#): > > Fred Phelps, AFAIK, doesn’t post on these boards but I’d put him and his whole family ministry up there with your list of racist sheriffs and neo-Nazis, no question. Bigotry’s out there, regardless of whether it’s found here on the SDMB or not. It needs to be confronted. Roughly three hundred million people live in this country, **Olentzero**. As a percentage, I’d be interested to know just how many you think are influenced by Fred Phelps. I believe that society is not nearly as filled with teh gay hayters as you like to think it is. > [@Der Trihs](#): > > Tell that to someone who isn’t allowed to be with their loved one when they die, and then has their inheritance stolen by the loved one’s bigoted family from them thanks to being unable to have a real marriage. So far as I’m aware, there is no law that prevents gays from expressing and enforcing their wishes that their loved one be with them when they die. And so far as I’m aware, gays have just as much right to dispose of their property and holdings however they wish by virtue of a will. I suspect that what you’re really talking about are instances where someone dying of AIDS simply has not taken the necessary steps to ensure that his death transpires in the way you think it should. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/105 "2009-05-27T08:55:55Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Roughly three hundred million people live in this country, **Olentzero**. As a percentage, I’d be interested to know just how many you think are influenced by Fred Phelps. Don’t know. Don’t frankly care. Those that are, however, deserve to be called on their bullshit and told in no uncertain terms that they can take their homophobic hate and shove it. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/106 "2009-05-27T08:56:59Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > At last! A post by **elucidator** that I can get behind. > > (So you might want to rethink that one, **luci**.) 😉 > > Roughly three hundred million people live in this country, **Olentzero**. As a percentage, I’d be interested to know just how many you think are influenced by Fred Phelps. > > I believe that society is not nearly as filled with teh gay hayters as you like to think it is. > > So far as I’m aware, there is no law that prevents gays from expressing and enforcing their wishes that their loved one be with them when they die. > > And so far as I’m aware, gays have just as much right to dispose of their property and holdings however they wish by virtue of a will. > > I suspect that what you’re really talking about are instances where someone dying of AIDS simply has not taken the necessary steps to ensure that his death transpires in the way you think it should. So marriage benefits are worthless? Why should they exist at all? Not everyone can afford or thinks to get a will. Not everyone gets to do it in time. Your argument is that straight couples get a huge set of bonuses automatically and gay couples should spend time and money to patchwork up the same benefits? Fuck, at least you’re smarter than Blake. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/107 "2009-05-27T09:00:11Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > So you’re making up “scientific facts” out of whole cloth I repeat: This is hypothetical situation you ignoramous. It didn’t actually happen. You just don’t get it do you. This is to precious for words.😃 ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/108 "2009-05-27T09:01:28Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > I repeat: > This is hypothetical situation you ignoramous. It didn’t actually happen. > > You just don’t get it do you. This is to precious for words.😃 Hey Blake. Any luck on that argument? ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/109 "2009-05-27T09:14:43Z")
Oh no, I get it perfectly, **Blake**. You’re pulling everything out of your ass and expecting us to accept it as a valid argument for your case. I think you’d have better luck trying to convince us the Brothers Grimm wrote an authoritative chronicle of German history. If you’re out of middle school early this year, there are some lovely bridges you can go hide under for the summer. It’s cool and dark there. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/110 "2009-05-27T09:15:30Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Say there is a majority in a society. Call the majority group X. Now say there is a minority in the society. Call them group Y. Say group Y is different from group X due to some characteristic beyond group Y’s control. It could be skin color, ethnic origin, parent’s religion, gender, or, to pick something at random, sexual orientation. > > If someone in group X feels that everyone in group Y should be denied a right people in group X enjoy, and can give no valid reason for this position, that person is a bigot. In fact, that’s pretty much the definition of bigotry right there. > > **Trihs** is correct. People against SSM are bigots, plain and simple. There’s just no other word for it. This. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/111 "2009-05-27T09:39:07Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > Don’t know. Don’t frankly care. Those that are, however, deserve to be called on their bullshit and told in no uncertain terms that they can take their homophobic hate and shove it. Then I’d suggest you focus your efforts on that rather small population rather than trying to paint an inordinately large part of society with the Fred Phelps brush. > [@Lobohan](#): > > So marriage benefits are worthless? Nope. Never said they were. > [@Lobohan](#): > > Why should they exist at all? Well, it all started a long time ago…but it’s late and I never said they shouldn’t exist. So I don’t think I’ll go into it. > [@Lobohan](#): > > Not everyone can afford or thinks to get a will. Not everyone gets to do it in time. Your argument is that straight couples get a huge set of bonuses automatically and gay couples should spend time and money to patchwork up the same benefits? No, my argument is that until the time comes when SSM is adopted, other means exist by which to acheive many of the same goals. And _“Any person over the age of majority and of sound mind can draft his or her own will without the aid of an attorney.”_ [Link](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_(law)) And come on, _they don’t think of it?_ They don’t have time? Please. Perfectly legal wills can be drawn up on a paper napkin in two minutes and written in ball-point pen. (Which is not to suggest that this would be a good way to go about it. :)) Still, anyone with sufficient concerns that their estates or their belongings should go to a specific loved one can easily draft, or have drafted, a will that ensure their wishes are honored upon their death. Then ‘not getting to do it in time’ doesn’t become an issue. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/112 "2009-05-27T09:43:20Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > You’re pulling everything out of your ass… I repeat: This is a hypothetical situation you ignoramous. It didn’t actually happen. That you just don’t get the irony only adds to the delicious, sweet irony.😃 And the laughs. (Of course.) ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/113 "2009-05-27T10:00:39Z")
**Starving Artist** , use your reading comprehension skills a little. **elucidator** said, and I quote: > [@elucidator](#): > > I see confusion, I see discomfort with change. I see uncertainty in the face of change. But bigotry? Not even close, nothing I’ve seen on these boards gets within a hundred miles of Bull Connor or George Lincoln Rockwell, or the White Citizens Council. While he did limit his argument to what he’d seen here on the SDMB, I did feel it necessary to point out that homophobia does in fact achieve the level of viciously rabid bigotry comparable to that spewed by Bull Connor, GL Rockwell, and the WCC, and provided Fred Phelps as an example. Nowhere did I assert that everyone who opposes SSM is a bigot on the level of Fred Phelps, nor did I assert that all opponents of SSM should be met with the same level of confrontation that Fred Phelps and his ilk justifiably deserve. Nonetheless, I think it’s been made abundantly clear by those who take this issue seriously that opposition to SSM does have its foundations in bigotry, and therefore should be confronted as such. _How_ it should be confronted depends on the situation and the person opposed to SSM, but it should be confronted. ---
**Author:** ![BunnyTVS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BunnyTVS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BunnyTVS)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/114 "2009-05-27T10:07:04Z")
> [@Jodi](#): > > Where are all the people murdering in the name of Christianity? Where are all the people forced at gun or swordpoint to convert to Christianity? And I’m talking specifically about modern Christianity, today, not a thousand years ago. Since your rabid anti-religiousity encompasses modern moderate religions, I trust your arguments will as well. [one](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/abortviolence/stories/gunn.htm) [two](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_of_God_(USA)) [As this happened halfway to your magical cut off point of 1000 years i’ll just claim 0.5 for this.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goa_Inquisition) I’m sure you can find more yourself. I don’t really want to highjack this thread but I’ve got to ask **Jodi** why only modern examples, and why only Christianity? Is it because you recognise/suspect/fear that earlier versions of Christianity _were_ bigotted? Is it because you knew that replacing **Christianity** with the more encompassing term **religion** would have yielded more examples. Or is it because we all know that peoples’ attitudes change over time. And that in a 1000 years people will look on the current attitudes towards SSM with the same incredulity we these days give to the inquisition [and this classic](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_witch_trials) Oh and for the poster who believes that I’m not having the _full_ human experience because I’m not going to procreate… That should deserve a Pit thread of it’s own. But I’ve got a couple of days off work, and I’m in too good a mood. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/115 "2009-05-27T10:25:01Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > And come on, _they don’t think of it?_ They don’t have time? Please. Perfectly legal wills can be drawn up on a paper napkin in two minutes and written in ball-point pen. (Which is not to suggest that this would be a good way to go about it. :)) Still, anyone with sufficient concerns that their estates or their belongings should go to a specific loved one can easily draft, or have drafted, a will that ensure their wishes are honored upon their death. Then ‘not getting to do it in time’ doesn’t become an issue. The existence of laws covering the condition known as “dying intestate” pretty much tells me there are lots of people, regardless of sexual orientation, who don’t get around to writing wills. But the laws up until this decade have seemed to favor those who were in a state-sanctioned relationship (i.e. marriage) over those who weren’t when it came to determining who inherited what in the case of intestate. In [California](http://www.ca-trusts.com/intestate.html), for example, if the decedent was married, all community property goes to the surviving spouse. I’m assuming that the law states the date of marriage to be the effective date for determining what’s community property and what’s separate property in a marriage, and I have no idea how long that law has been on the books; apparently, however, it took until [2005](http://www.wehlaw.com/6.html) for California to enact a law giving registered domestic partnerships (RDPs) that exact same right. And RDPs were only established in 2000, which means prior to then there was no legal basis for establishing what was community property and what was separate property in a non-marriage relationship. I don’t have any cases at hand but I would be very surprised if there were no cases in CA whatsoever where a deceden’t gay or lesbian partner got screwed out of much of what they should by rights have inherited. So even the presence of a will may not have been enough. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/116 "2009-05-27T10:49:54Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Can you really not think of one? Given this thread and the events of the last couple of years one at least seems obvious. > > Gay marriage leads to social conflict. That’s a negative to society. We do not have “gay marriage” today, all of the conflict that exists today exists because there is no gay marriage. What conflict is there in states or countries where gay marriage is allowed? Gay marriage does not lead to social conflict. Bigots who want to deny gay people the right to marry, THEY cause social conflict. BTW, for a person who thinks anyone should be able to come up with multiple non-bigoted reasons to oppose SSM (and inter-racial marriage), you’re sure having to create a fanciful set of circumstances to support your first example. I’d be more than happy to hear a real world example of non-bigoted opposition to SSM, because I haven’t heard one yet, and these gay couples are REAL. These are REAL people with REAL dreams and REAL lives, so quit it with the bullshit theoretical arguments supporting the folks who want to deny these people the rights that other people have. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/117 "2009-05-27T10:52:44Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > How about my word? For your convenience I will state the following: > > Every argument I have ever heard to the effect that legal marriage should be preserved for different-gendered couples and prohibited for same-gendered couples has been the product of bigotry. The opinion that legal marriage should be preserved for different-gendered couples and prohibited for same-gendered couples is homophobic, because it states that gay, lesbian, and bisexual people should be unequal to heterosexuals under the law. Actually, that’s my attitude on the subject as well, so you can relax a little. If you want. I just thought **DT** was going just a bit over the top in claiming that he simply couldn’t find any way other than name-calling to be honest on this issue. I’ll get out of the way now, so everyone can argue in peace. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/118 "2009-05-27T11:06:22Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > I just thought **DT** was going just a bit over the top in claiming that he simply couldn’t find any way other than name-calling to be honest on this issue. The problem was that **tomndebb** accused me of lumping unrelated groups together with a broad brush argument, the common feature of those groups is bigotry against homosexuals, but **tomndebb** forbade anyone to say that those who oppose SSM are bigots in that thread. So, I couldn’t explain or defend myself there. Sort of like trying to explain how apartheid era South Africa, the Old South, and the KKK all belong in the same category without mentioning bigotry against black people. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/119 "2009-05-27T11:16:41Z")
> [@](#): > > **magellan01** : Straights that can’t or choose to not have children also do not experience as full a range of what it means to be a human on the planet. Oh poor me. You know, I could make a list of people who do not “experience a full range of what it means to be human on the planet.” It would start with people who have numbers in their user names. I would have to add men. Somewhere along the list I would add people who have never had lunch with a palace chef or danced with a knight. But eventually I would add everyone to the list. We can all live full lives without having it all, you know. > [@](#): > > **Finn Again** : Not really surprising, as you’re about as introspective as any other crazy person. Oh, come now! I’m quite crazy and so introspective as to be totally self-absorbed. Just ask those people over there. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2009, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768/120 "2009-05-27T11:28:54Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > A few quick clarifications for the sock-o-rocks dumb: Because I disagree with you, I’m dumb? No, sorry. You have to resort to ad hominem attacks rather than facts, because you have absolutely no leg to stand on. It’s really rather pathetic. My answers should be predictable to you, since we’ve already had this conversation. > [@](#): > > Do you _deny_ that it allows for a fuller human experience. Do you deny that part of our ability, indeed part of our reason for being here is procreation? If so, you are an idiot. In fact, either way, you are an idiot. Sticks and stones. Yes, I do deny that it allows for some mystical “fullest human experience.” It’s a different human experience. That’s not the same as denying that I wouldn’t be here without it. I think you can live an optimal, peak human experience without it. I also think this reason is full of shit, because if you truly believed it, you’d be lobbying to prevent non-procreating couples from marrying, because then children would think THAT was normal and OK, and they would also lose out on this fullest human experience. But you don’t care about non-procreating couples, just gays. Seems contradictory to me. Care to explain, since your intelligence is so much more vast than mine? > [@](#): > > False. the experience is fully human, but it does not allow the human experience to the fullest. Playing word games as usual. > [@](#): > > Straights that can’t or choose to not have children also do not experience as full a range of what it means to be a human on the planet. Neither can you, then, because you can’t be in love with another man. You can’t bear a child because you’re a man. Etc. No one can experience the full range of human experiences because it’s not physically or emotionally possible. This axiom is a poor reason to deny people access to equal rights. > [@](#): > > Do you deny that it does? If so, you are an idiot. Have you ever seen a bell curve? Is this a whoosh? We’ve been OVER THIS BEFORE. The norm is what’s normal. For gay people, being gay is normal. Statistically, it’s normal for about 10% of the population to be gay. Can you deny this? Is this a whoosh? You don’t have to be in the statistical majority to be fucking normal. > [@](#): > > Being a product of birth would make it _natural_. But still normal, not representative of the norm. So, to you, “normal” does not mean “representative of the norm.” Oooookay. > [@](#): > > Wow. I don’t think a person come be as dumb or as dense as you. That’s because you lack imagination. And a mirror. > [@](#): > > I can’t tell if dishonesty or imbecility is you strong suit. Which would you go with? I’d go with “magellan01 is unable to defend his ideas without resorting to third grade level name calling.” Would you say that’s a fair assessment? I think you’d sort of have to. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-i-cant-be-honest-in-gd/497768.md?page=7)