# Since when is the term Oriental offensive? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 22, 2003, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-when-is-the-term-oriental-offensive/197025 "2003-08-22T21:53:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-when-is-the-term-oriental-offensive/197025/101 "2003-09-01T07:09:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Evil Captor \* > “Oriental” as a term of bigotry is an idea coined by a wack-job ideologue, i.e., Said, picked up on and promulgated by PC types who found it a nifty club to beat others with. This is an utterly false characterization of the situation. You’re just making up what you _wish_ to be the situation, because it would fit in your narrow worldview, I guess. Nobody’s beating anybody with a club; they’re just asking you to use “Asian” instead of “Oriental”. What on Earth could possibly be so hard about that? > [@](#): > > Most Asians could give a rat’s ass about it either way. False. Most Asians prefer “Asian”. > [@](#): > > Most Americans and Europeans could give a rat’s ass about it either way. False as to Americans. They may still commonly use “Oriental” in some European countries, but as far as Americans go, “Asian” is the preferred term. > [@](#): > > The notion of “oriental” as a term of bigotry is not a legitimate one because only a few academics and ideologues care about it. I’m not really following you on this. It’s already been explained time and time again that it’s not as _strong_ a statement of bigotry as are other words, but that doesn’t change the fact that “Asian” is preferred. The fact that not everyone gets _incensed_ about it doesn’t mean that nobody cares _at all_. And calling the majority of people who _do_ care childish names like “prissy PC ninnies” really doesn’t help your argument at all. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-when-is-the-term-oriental-offensive/197025/102 "2003-09-01T11:08:07Z")
I can understand where some of the resistance is coming from. Since I first got involved in this debate a few years ago on the boards (which I would rather not have people read 'cause I was quite the ass), I have been lookiing for the “smoking gun” on why Oriental went from being a common word to a bigoted word. Through the mid 1980’s on politically correct PC University of California campuses, this was not an issue. Asian was much more common, but not one batted an eye if you said Oriental. Back then, Oriental did not mean a rug. I was up on Chinese and things Asian with a vitrolic politically corrent Japanese American girlfriend that had no problem with me calling her an “Ornamental.” That was the way it was. Somewhere in the past 20 years, things changed. I was out of the US for most of that so I missed it until a couple of years ago on this board. What caused the change - I can’t find any smoking gun. you ask people, and most don’t have the foggiest notion. I’d really like to know. I’ve got a few guesses. At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter why (except to satisfy curiousity). What does matter is that there are enough people in the US that prefer to be called “Asian” and not “Oriental”. Once you understand this fact, one would be a jerk to keep using the word “Oriental.” Caveat being that this is an Asian American thing and YMMV throughout the rest of the world, especially ironically enough in the “Orient.” Irony aside, once you know you should make an effort to call people by their preference. ---
**Author:** ![Milum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-when-is-the-term-oriental-offensive/197025/103 "2003-09-01T14:33:16Z")
**China Guy** Caveat being that this is an Asian American thing and YMMV throughout the rest of the world, especially ironically enough in the “Orient.” \*\* Irony aside, once you know you should make an effort to call people by their preference.\*\* * * * Of course **China Guy** , one-on-one; it’s the polite thing to do. In larger groups, unless the designation is intended to be offensive, or is taken to be offensive by the group being refered to, it is best to refer to the traditional term until it dies a natural death rather than go through a litany of artificial propped-up clumsy word constructions that only reflect the whims of those who can command the vogue. ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-when-is-the-term-oriental-offensive/197025/104 "2003-09-01T15:37:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by China Guy \* > \*\*I can understand where some of the resistance is coming from. Since I first got involved in this debate a few years ago on the boards (which I would rather not have people read 'cause I was quite the ass), I have been lookiing for the “smoking gun” on why Oriental went from being a common word to a bigoted word. \*\* Finally tracked down some facts re “who”, “when”, “where”, and “why” (the creation of “Asian American”) as per one of the older threads (I didn’t think you were an ass, btw). A more satisfying answer than “oriental is a rug”, IMO. Posted them in the GQ thread; here’s the link: [Answers!](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&goto=lastpost&threadid=171793). In hindsight, it might have been more appropriate to title this thread “Since when is _discussing_ the term Oriental offensive?” Anyway, I have to credit Yellowworld (an Asian American activist forum) for leading me to the info, and a variety of perspectives about the question of “offensiveness”. Can’t resist closing with the New York moderator’s opinion: [Click](http://forums.yellowworld.org/showpost.php?p=47877&postcount=136). 😉 (full discussion [here](http://forums.yellowworld.org/showthread.php?t=3242&page=1&pp=15)) ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2003, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-when-is-the-term-oriental-offensive/197025/105 "2003-09-01T23:34:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by blowero \* > **This is an utterly false characterization of the situation.** Do tell. It has already been conceded by several posters who share your general viewpoint, if not your vehemence, that many Asian and non-Asian Americans are not aware that “oriental” is regarded as an offensive term. I bet if you were to bring the topic up to most Americans, it would be met with a well-deserved “hunh?” or an equally well deserved “so what?” because not a hell of a lot of people use the term Oriental to describe Asians. It’s just a bunch of ideologues and PC types getting their panties in a wad over a largely imagined slight. As Milum has suggested, the term is well on its way to dying a natural death, let it do so. **Nobody’s beating anybody with a club; they’re just asking you to use “Asian” instead of “Oriental”. What on Earth could possibly be so hard about that?** I have no need to call Asians Orientals, or vice versa. I’m just expressing my opinion of the people who are making a big deal out of it. \*\*The fact that not everyone gets _incensed_ about it doesn’t mean that nobody cares _at all_. And calling the majority of people who _do_ care childish names like “prissy PC ninnies” really doesn’t help your argument at all. \*\* The fact that **almost no one** gets incensed about it, and many others don’t even know about it means it’s not a problem. And I think I very clearly expressed the opinion of many of us who feel this is mostly just a cheap language scam to garner some moral superiority with my choice of words. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-when-is-the-term-oriental-offensive/197025/106 "2003-09-02T06:15:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Evil Captor \* > It has already been conceded by several posters who share your general viewpoint, if not your vehemence, that many Asian and non-Asian Americans are not aware that “oriental” is regarded as an offensive term. _Many_ is not equivalent to _most_ as per your earlier claim. I’m sure some people still _do_ use “Oriental”, but FAR, FAR more use “Asian”. It’s obviously not an exhaustive study, but try doing a simple google search on both words. Here’s how many hits you get: Oriental - 6,630,000 Asian - 41,300,000 I mean, dude - it’s NOT EVEN CLOSE. Or try “Oriental Student Union”, and put it in quotes so it only includes that specific title - see how many hits you get (I didn’t get even ONE SINGLE modern organization with that name, only historical references. Then try “Asian Student Union” in quotes, and see how many hits you get. As for my “viewpoint” - I don’t think you really understand it. If I have shown any vehemence, it’s in response to those who use disingenous arguments and try to misrepresent what I am saying. I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve said that I harbor no ill-will towards any person who innocently uses the word “Oriental” out of ignorance. The only thing that bothers me is the arrogance of those who say, in effect: “I don’t care what Asians think, I’m going to keep calling them Orientals because _I_ don’t see anything wrong with it.” Again and again, I have stated my point: It doesn’t make sense that the arbitors of what name a person prefers to be called should be _the one who is calling them the name_. I don’t get how it logically would be up to _me_, a white person, to decide what name an Asian person would prefer for me to call him. If I do that, I’m just disrespecting his opinion. So it’s not the word “Oriental” itself that’s offensive; it’s anyone who does not respect the opinion of others that’s offensive in my book. > [@](#): > > I bet if you were to bring the topic up to most Americans, it would be met with a well-deserved “hunh?” or an equally well deserved “so what?” because not a hell of a lot of people use the term Oriental to describe Asians. It’s just a bunch of ideologues and PC types getting their panties in a wad over a largely imagined slight. As Milum has suggested, the term is well on its way to dying a natural death, let it do so. I think you have it 100% backwards. What I’m seeing is a bunch of _anti-PC_ reactionaries getting _their_ panties wadded because they are somehow interpreting this whole thing as “being told what to do”. In this thread, who is being called “prissy PC ninnies”? Who has been characterized as “just wanting something to bitch about?”. The epithets getting hurled around are against this supposed group of “PC-types” (whatever the hell that means). And all for nought - the word “Asian” is in widespread usage in the U.S. to the point that it doesn’t even need to be _open_ to debate. It’s like debating whether one should say “you” or “thou”. And notice that the thread was not started by a “PC-type” complaining about the word “Oriental”, but rather someone questioning, and later complaining about the word “Asian” supplanting “Oriental”. > [@](#): > > **Nobody’s beating anybody with a club; they’re just asking you to use “Asian” instead of “Oriental”. What on Earth could possibly be so hard about that?** > > I have no need to call Asians Orientals, or vice versa. I’m just expressing my opinion of the people who are making a big deal out of it. Yeah, you guys _are_ making a big deal out of it. > [@](#): > > \*\*The fact that not everyone gets _incensed_ about it doesn’t mean that nobody cares _at all_. And calling the majority of people who _do_ care childish names like “prissy PC ninnies” really doesn’t help your argument at all. \*\* > > The fact that **almost no one** gets incensed about it, and many others don’t even know about it means it’s not a problem. It’s only a problem because you and others are MAKING it a problem. > [@](#): > > And I think I very clearly expressed the opinion of many of us who feel this is mostly just a cheap language scam to garner some moral superiority with my choice of words. And this is exactly what I’m talking about. You seem incensed at the fact that “Asian” is preferred, to the point that you rail against it as a “cheap language scam”. Rather than just accept the modern usage, you seem to want to argue against it and vilify those who support the modern usage. ---
**Author:** ![Space\_Vampire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Space\_Vampire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Space_Vampire)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-when-is-the-term-oriental-offensive/197025/107 "2003-09-02T07:06:55Z")
Nothing to add except that I support you 100%, blowero. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-when-is-the-term-oriental-offensive/197025/108 "2003-09-02T10:08:19Z")
Keep in mind that language not only changes, but is also always in the process of changing. Regardless of what you knew before reading the OP, everyone who has followed this thread should know by now what the currently preferred term is. Whether or not you use it is your choice. Whether or not I complain about your choice is _my_ choice. > [@](#): > > **SAustinTx** : The point is, it wasn’t obviously perceived as a “slur” in the same way as “nigger” was. The word _nigger_ was not always considered a slur: [http://phobos.ramapo.edu/~pchang/etymology\_of\_hate.htm](http://phobos.ramapo.edu/~pchang/etymology_of_hate.htm) > [@](#): > > NIGGER: The obsolete spelling “niger” dates back to 1574 dervied from the Latin word meaning black > comes from the Latin root for black. The word was used in both England and America around the 17th century. Around 1825, abolitionists and blacks began feeling the word was hurtful to them. After the Civil War, the word “nigger” became the most commonly used term to describe the blacks. **Even though the word was at first not meant to offend, such powerful white men as George Conrad continually used it during public speaking and argued that the word was not meant to be offensive.** (bolding mine)\* \*I guess, like some of you, George objected to the “PC guidelines” (read: _good manners_) of his day. We cannot know at this point whether or not the term _Oriental_ will one day be viewed with as much disgust. > [@](#): > > **Annaplurabelle** : I’m more curious about the mechanics/politics of terminology changes into the vernacular of the teeming masses. It is a fascinating field of study. Have you considered courses at the university where you teach? > [@](#): > > **SAustinTx** : Well damn! Someone who actually understands why I asked the question in the first place! I apologize if the sarcasm of my later posts led anyone to believe I objected to refraining from the use of the word oriental: I knew this would be an excuse for PC folk (ie. not Bill Gates or Steve Jobs) to jump on their soap boxes and loudly proclaim their moral superiority without in any way answering the question, so I thought I would pre-empt that with a little sharp humor. I stand corrected. Obviously I haven’t been on these boards long enough. If you keep hijacking your own posts, I will have to agree with you. (Wrist slap!) I hope that your original post has been addressed as adequately as it can be on a message board. Some people spend their entire lives trying to answer questions like that. > [@](#): > > **SAustinTx** : Since it’s apparently OK to refer to rugs or continents as oriental as long as we’re referring to residents of the area as Asian and not Oriental, is it OK for a southern redneck to refer to rap as “nigger music” as long as he dubs it’s practicioners African-Americans? Since you’re from the South, I would have thought that your mama would have taught you better manners than a post like that. Was I wrong? (Guess who was a bitchy school marm. :)) > [@](#): > > **dropzone** : > But why is the noun okay but the adjective not? It’s starting to be nonsensical. Language has many mysteries and that is one of them. Sometimes it is just not logical. > [@](#): > > **Milum** : Words are transitory appellations. Words become what they identify, changing the wording changes not a whit. Changing the wording often changes our perceptions and that can make a _big_ difference for at least a while. That allows some of us to get a foot in the door. Consider the difference in the use of the words _man_ and _boy_ for adult males, for example. > [@](#): > > **Annaplurabelle** : Yes, my “own little world”, the “backwater location” known as “New York City”. Or are you referring to say, China? The UK? Guess what, “dude”: “The World” is not just the West Coast of the USA. It’s not even “The USA”. Maybe you should get out more. I’m a sixty year old Southern agoraphobe who _is_ from the backwaters, but I have known about the change in preference from _Oriental_ to _Asian_ for fifteen or twenty years. BTW, do you prefer to be called _Sweetie Britches_ or _Little Lady_? (Just making a point…) ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-when-is-the-term-oriental-offensive/197025/109 "2003-09-02T12:36:08Z")
Sweetie Britches\*, isn’t it fun to have been around long enough to watch the language change around you? Why, I used “person of color” so long I was actually able to see it come back INTO favor! - - Whadya mean that was the one you DON’T like? How was I supposed to figure it out, from CONTEXT? ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-when-is-the-term-oriental-offensive/197025/110 "2003-09-02T15:07:32Z")
Originally posted by Zoe: > [@](#): > > SAustinTx: The point is, it wasn’t obviously perceived as a “slur” in the same way as “nigger” was. **Zoe** , misquoting another member is a no-no at SDMB. **SAustinTx** never posted that (guess who did?). Maybe you should try actually reading a thread before you cherry pick arguments. And, if you had bothered to actually read _my cites_, you would know what _real live “Asian Americans”_ (gasp!) have to say about it. Surely, you’re not expecting me to take your word over theirs… or are you? Aren’t you also one of the non-Asians who should allegedly “have no say” in the matter? Here’s a funny post from SDMB (in the [GQ thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/newreply.php?s=&action=newreply&postid=3924459) of the same subject): > [@](#): > > I know a LOT of Asian-continent people (and am one myself) and **no one has ever expressed an overwhelming preference for one term over another. Certainly none of them ever get offended if they’re called by the “wrong” term**. Don’t know what could account for this difference. Maybe it’s the laid-back spirit of Hawaii, or **maybe everyone everyone else knows wears underwear that’s too tight**. Anyway, some Asians prefer Asian, some prefer Oriental. I’ve observed that where I’m from, people my parents’ age (baby boomers) prefer the term Oriental, whereas their kids use Asian. But it very well could be a regional thing or a political correctness thing. People are going to prefer different terms for different reasons. If you want more laughs at your own expense (assuming you’re capable of such a thing), read what they (in my cite) have to say about white “PC” liberals who decide to intervene as “saviours for the benighted Orientals”. Believe me, “PC ninnies” is the “sensitive” term for what you’re doing. But by all means, feel free to continue to throw hissy fits, regardless of whether or not the people you are “defending” are actually offended. As I’ve said, I accept the reality that freedom _of_ speech means I can’t expect freedom _from_ speech. I’m sorry if you can’t seem to come to terms with that reality. **blowero** : I’m not holding my breath for a cite to “prove” your assertions against me. Apparently, there’s a waitlist: [Cite!](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/newreply.php?s=&action=newreply&postid=3925271) I’d snicker, but I’m trying to be the “bigger” man about it. Good luck in your future “debates”. **dropzone** (or do you prefer “insensitive jackass”?): As Tony Soprano says “Whatcha gonna do?” I’ll say it again: It’s ironic that the same people who are always advocating “sensitivity”, always seem to enjoy indulging in snide remarks over actual dialogue. Is there a “PC” term for “hypocrite”? Thought not. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-when-is-the-term-oriental-offensive/197025/111 "2003-09-02T16:13:50Z")
Ah, but you must be referring to one of my SENSITIVE personalities when you speak of me as “advocating ‘sensitivity.’” My snide, insensitive, jackassish personality is the dropzone posting in this thread. :rolleyes: Anyway, as I have explained MANY times before, I’m not HYPOCRITICAL, I am OF TWO (or more) MINDS ABOUT EVERY TOPIC and, as sometimes happens, will work out my thoughts on an issue at the keyboard so my opinions seem extremely changeable (which they are). It just LOOKS like hypocrisy to people who stick to a single position. YOU can try seeing both sides of an issue and see how long it takes before you are accused of hypocrisy. Anyway, when was I snide? Or, better, when was I snide during the past few days, not counting this reply? Why, I’ve been on my best behavior lately! ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-when-is-the-term-oriental-offensive/197025/112 "2003-09-02T17:48:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dropzone \* > \*\*Ah, but you must be referring to one of my SENSITIVE personalities when you speak of me as “advocating ‘sensitivity.’” My snide, insensitive, jackassish personality is the dropzone posting in this thread \*\* Yikes, talk about out of _context_… I wasn’t referring _to_ you, I was commisserating _with_ you! Come on, it’s me, _Sweetie Britches_! In any case, sorry for the mix-up. Signed, _Apologetic_ insensitive jackass (but I’m thinking of changing it, since it will probably “conjure up” the negative connotations of “insensitive jackass” as defined by others in this thread 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-when-is-the-term-oriental-offensive/197025/113 "2003-09-02T19:20:02Z")
> [@](#): > > **Annabellaplura** : Zoe, misquoting another member is a no-no at SDMB. SAustinTx never posted that (guess who did?). Maybe you should try actually reading a thread before you cherry pick arguments. My apologies to SAustinTx for crediting her or him with Annaplurabella’s comment. > [@](#): > > And, if you had bothered to actually read my cites, you would know what real live “Asian Americans” (gasp!) have to say about it. Surely, you’re not expecting me to take your word over theirs… or are you? Not at all. You don’t expect me to accept your cites over the word of people in my neighborhood, do you? Or my former students? You don’t expect me to accept your cites as the _only_ source of information of the subject, do you? > [@](#): > > Aren’t you also one of the non-Asians who should allegedly “have no say” in the matter? Here’s a funny post from SDMB (in the GQ thread of the same subject): I am non-Asian. I have never suggested that I have no say or that you have no say. I _have_ suggested that it is polite to defer to the wishes of the persons being addressed or described. > [@](#): > > **Annaplurabella** : If you want more laughs at your own expense (assuming you’re capable of such a thing), read what they (in my cite) have to say about white “PC” liberals who decide to intervene as “saviours for the benighted Orientals”. Believe me, “PC ninnies” is the “sensitive” term for what you’re doing. **Your comments are becoming quite personal which is also a no-no at SDMB.** That is not my rule, but theirs. > [@](#): > > **Annaplurabella** : But by all means, feel free to continue to throw hissy fits, regardless of whether or not the people you are “defending” are actually offended. As I’ve said, I accept the reality that freedom of speech means I can’t expect freedom from speech. I’m sorry if you can’t seem to come to terms with that reality. Would you have the courtesy of pointing out what I said that you consider to be a “hissy fit”? I have come to terms with the reality that people have the right to choose what they wish to say. Do you disagree? ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-when-is-the-term-oriental-offensive/197025/114 "2003-09-02T19:26:15Z")
> [@](#): > > **Annabellaplura** : Zoe, misquoting another member is a no-no at SDMB. SAustinTx never posted that (guess who did?). Maybe you should try actually reading a thread before you cherry pick arguments. My apologies to SAustinTx for crediting her or him with Annaplurabella’s comment. > [@](#): > > And, if you had bothered to actually read my cites, you would know what real live “Asian Americans” (gasp!) have to say about it. Surely, you’re not expecting me to take your word over theirs… or are you? Not at all. You don’t expect me to accept your cites over the word of people in my neighborhood, do you? Or my former students? You don’t expect me to accept your cites as the _only_ source of information of the subject, do you? > [@](#): > > Aren’t you also one of the non-Asians who should allegedly “have no say” in the matter? Here’s a funny post from SDMB (in the GQ thread of the same subject): I am non-Asian. I have never suggested that I have no say or that you have no say. I _have_ suggested that it is polite to defer to the wishes of the persons being addressed or described. > [@](#): > > **Annaplurabella** : If you want more laughs at your own expense (assuming you’re capable of such a thing), read what they (in my cite) have to say about white “PC” liberals who decide to intervene as “saviours for the benighted Orientals”. Believe me, “PC ninnies” is the “sensitive” term for what you’re doing. **Your comments are becoming quite personal which is also a no-no at SDMB.** That is not my rule, but theirs. > [@](#): > > **Annaplurabella** : But by all means, feel free to continue to throw hissy fits, regardless of whether or not the people you are “defending” are actually offended. As I’ve said, I accept the reality that freedom of speech means I can’t expect freedom from speech. I’m sorry if you can’t seem to come to terms with that reality. Would you have the courtesy of pointing out what I said that you consider to be a “hissy fit”? I have come to terms with the reality that people have the right to choose what they wish to say. Do you disagree? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-when-is-the-term-oriental-offensive/197025/115 "2003-09-02T20:04:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by annaplurabelle \* > \*\*In any case, sorry for the mix-up.[/SIZE] \*\* I thought Zoe was the one I called “Sweetie Britches.” [Barbarino voice] I’m so CONFUSED! [/Barbarino voice] (dropzone’s “authoritative without authority to back it up” personality takes over) Whereas this discussion has been done to death with no particular resolution and with no end in sight AND whereas it has started to get personal AND, most importantly, whereas few, if any, of us actually use “Oriental” to describe Asian people anyway, despite feelings some may have that the whole issue is a “tempest in a teacup” making this whole debate pretty much pointless, can we just let it sputter to a stop? ---
**Author:** ![Gold\_Dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d9b06d/32.png) [@Gold\_Dragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gold_Dragon)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-when-is-the-term-oriental-offensive/197025/116 "2003-09-02T20:45:37Z")
Here in Toronto, 1 in 3 is a visible minority. 1 in 10 are Chinese. [Stats Canada](http://www12.statcan.ca/english/census01/datafinder/FindDataRel.cfm?UNIT=CMA_CA&DEST=HLT&GEOID=535&N=3) I am a Canadian of Chinese decent. I have never considered the term Oriental offensive. I have never heard the term Oriental used in an offensive manner. I have never heard anyone complain about the term Oriental being offensive. My exposure to this phenomenon have been restricted to message boards and seems to be a west coast US thing. I sympathize with the OP in his confusion of when and why this change happened. Discussions on message boards and web sites about this topic have not given concrete answers. I suspect it is due to all the racial tension in the US and the asian community trying to find some way to voice their displeasure. Asian, Oriental, Chinese. They are just geographic labels of increasing specificity to me. ---
**Author:** ![annaplurabelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@annaplurabelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/annaplurabelle)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-when-is-the-term-oriental-offensive/197025/117 "2003-09-03T00:00:52Z")
Zoe: > [@](#): > > You don’t expect me to accept your cites over the word of people in my neighborhood, do you? Or my former students? You don’t expect me to accept your cites as the only source of information of the subject, do you?" No, I don’t expect you to accept my cites (and the word of some posters here) as the _only_ source, but I _do_ expect that you accept the _fact_ that there is no nation-wide (much less world-wide) consensus on how people feel about this, and therefore, my situation might differ from yours (as anyone’s situation might differ from anyone else’s). This reality is _not_ reflected in your statement here: > [@](#): > > Regardless of what you knew before reading the OP, everyone who has followed this thread should know by now what the currently preferred term is. Whether or not you use it is your choice. Whether or not I complain about your choice is my choice. Now, _why_ would you choose to complain about a choice that doesn’t offend the person addressed, and might possibly be their _preference_? And _how_ can you justify threatening complaint _here and now_, in the absence of anyone actually addressing anyone else, or even stating _intention_ to offend? Beyond those questions, I would ask you _specifically_ to cite where _I_ have used _any_ racial or ethnic slur as a form of address - either here, or in any other thread. Further, cite where _I_ have said that I _did_ use an unacceptable term to address someone, or that I was even _intending_ to do so in future (after all, you _did_ address your post _to me_, didn’t you?). On what rational basis can you claim this “_repeated-ad-nauseum-in-this-thread_ lecture” (in absence of offense, and w/o any probable cause of future offense), is warranted? I call that a hissy fit. > [@](#): > > Your comments are becoming quite personal which is also a no-no at SDMB. That is not my rule, but theirs. It is obviously not your rule. I’ll ask you how these remarks (posted _prior_ to my comments to you) can be taken for anything but personal and/or sarcastic: _“It is a fascinating field of study. Have you considered courses at the university where you teach?”_ _“BTW, do you prefer to be called Sweetie Britches or Little Lady? (Just making a point…)”_ Well, we’re _all_ “just making a point” when we post, aren’t we? Would it have been more acceptable if I added that disclaimer, or a roll eye smiley, after my “personal” comments to you? I’m fairly new here; I’ll try to remember all the “tactics” that allow personal comments to slide. dropzone: > [@](#): > > I thought Zoe was the one I called “Sweetie Britches.” No matter. I asked my neighbour, and he said it was now unacceptable to call either Zoe or myself “Sweetie Britches”. Please conform to this standard _at once_, and for god’s sake, _don’t ask why_! ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-when-is-the-term-oriental-offensive/197025/118 "2003-09-03T01:49:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by blowero \* > \*\*_Many_ is not equivalent to _most_ as per your earlier claim. I’m sure some people still _do_ use “Oriental”, but FAR, FAR more use “Asian”. It’s obviously not an exhaustive study, but try doing a simple google search on both words. Here’s how many hits you get: > > Oriental - 6,630,000 > Asian - 41,300,000 > > I mean, dude - it’s NOT EVEN CLOSE.\*\* What are you arguing this point with me for? Did I not say already that Oriental is on its way to dying as a term? Did I indicate any preference for either term? I could give a rat’s ass either way, I thought I made that clear. It’s just the snippy, self-righteous tone of the PC crowd that I am opposing – quite properly, I believe. **I don’t get how it logically would be up to _me_, a white person, to decide what name an Asian person would prefer for me to call him. If I do that, I’m just disrespecting his opinion. So it’s not the word “Oriental” itself that’s offensive; it’s anyone who does not respect the opinion of others that’s offensive in my book.** So, you’re completely cool with those Asians who prefer to be called Orientals? And you’re also completely cool with the use of the term Oriental when it’s appropriate, frex when a writer is referring to “Oriental mysticism”, etc.? **(… Lotsa stuf snipped here …) It’s only a problem because you and others are MAKING it a problem.** So, to paraphrase, "the only reason we’re having a fight here is because you guys are _hitting us back when we hit you._ Well, we’re real sorry 'bout that. But I think I have a valid point, I’m really comfortable in my viewpoint, and you haven’t said anything to make me change it. \*\*And this is exactly what I’m talking about. You seem incensed at the fact that “Asian” is preferred, to the point that you rail against it as a “cheap language scam”. Rather than just accept the modern usage, you seem to want to argue against it and vilify those who support the modern usage. \*\* [/QUOTE] No, I have no problem with using the word Asian to refer to people from Asia. It’s just the matter of manufacturing the use of the term “Oriental” as a mildly bigoted affront that I have trouble with. If you could simply admit that “Oriental” is a fundamentally harmless term whose “bigoted” origins all come from the mind of an intellectual wack job who was mostly wanting to show that it was a put-down for Arabs, I think we cold all go home happy. Because you see, it really IS a cheap language scam. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-when-is-the-term-oriental-offensive/197025/119 "2003-09-03T02:25:36Z")
> [@](#): > > **annaplurabelle** : And how can you justify threatening complaint here and now, in the absence of anyone actually addressing anyone else, or even stating intention to offend? I threaten nothing. I justify nothing. > [@](#): > > **annaplurabelle** : but I do expect that you accept the fact that there is no nation-wide (much less world-wide) consensus on how people feel about this, and therefore, my situation might differ from yours (as anyone’s situation might differ from anyone else’s). Expectation often leads to disappointment. Among your fellow academicians, _Asian_ is now generally accepted as preferable. > [@](#): > > **annaplurabelle** : Beyond those questions, I would ask you specifically to cite where I have used any racial or ethnic slur as a form of address - either here, or in any other thread. I have not accused you of doing so. > [@](#): > > **annaplurabelle** : Further, cite where I have said that I did use an unacceptable term to address someone, or that I was even intending to do so in future… I have not accused you of doing so. > [@](#): > > **annaplurabelle** :…(after all, you did address your post to me, didn’t you?). Only in part. > [@](#): > > **annaplurabelle** : On what rational basis can you claim this “repeated-ad-nauseum-in-this-thread lecture” (in absence of offense, and w/o any probable cause of future offense), is warranted? I call that a hissy fit. One post was all I had made when you accused me of having a hissy fit (your term). Now you say that that was a"repeated-ad-nauseum-in-this-thread lecture"(again, your term)? Do you consider all statements of belief that are in opposition to yours to be hissy fits? (Interesting debating technique!) Do you consider all of the statements that I have made to be about you? > [@](#): > > **annabellaplura** : I’ll ask you how these remarks (posted prior to my comments to you) can be taken for anything but personal and/or sarcastic: > > 1. “It is a fascinating field of study. Have you considered courses at the university where you teach?” You had indicated previously that you are a teacher. You had also indicated that you were interested in, in your words, “the mechanics/politics of terminology changes into the vernacular of the teeming masses.” This was one of my areas of study. Since it is not something that can be covered in a message board, much less a thread, I was trying to encourage you. You are not the first at SDMB that I have encouraged thus. > [@](#): > > 1. "“BTW, do you prefer to be called Sweetie Britches or Little Lady? (Just making a point…)” These were just two of the names that were used against me forty years ago for the purpose of being dismissive of my adulthood. The women who protested the use of demeaning terms made a positive difference in my life and in the lives of many other women – even those who may not realize it. There are people who continue to use labels for women that I find objectionable _even after I have told them that I find them dismissive._ Their motives are suspect. I wished to illustrate the inappropriateness of casual labelling and chose two that particularly bugged me. For clarity’s sake, I should have been more specific, personal **attacks** are not permitted in GD. If you wish to debate ideas, political correctness or labelling, I don’t mind continuing an exchange with you. But if you continue to insult me on a personal level as a debating technique, I will move on to something more appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-when-is-the-term-oriental-offensive/197025/120 "2003-09-03T02:36:18Z")
> [@](#): > > **dropzone** : Sweetie Britches\*, isn’t it fun to have been around long enough to watch the language change around you? Why, I used “person of color” so long I was actually able to see it come back INTO favor! Absolutely! That’s part of the fun of language. Ten years ago would you have ever imagined a TV show called _Queer Eye for the Straight Guy_? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-when-is-the-term-oriental-offensive/197025.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/since-when-is-the-term-oriental-offensive/197025.md?page=7)