# Singer of one of my songs goes on to be famous; is there a next step?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/singer-of-one-of-my-songs-goes-on-to-be-famous-is-there-a-next-step/808671
**Category:** Cafe Society
**Created:** [February 12, 2018, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/singer-of-one-of-my-songs-goes-on-to-be-famous-is-there-a-next-step/808671 "2018-02-12T06:15:08Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)
#### Post date: [February 12, 2018, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/singer-of-one-of-my-songs-goes-on-to-be-famous-is-there-a-next-step/808671/21 "2018-02-12T17:44:32Z")
Not the same scale, but… wasn’t Tony Sheridan able to release records he’d made with the then-unknown Beatles as his backup band? I’m sure many people who didn’t care at all about Sheridan were eager to buy those records as Beatle rarities, and I don’t know that there were any legal or moral obstacles.
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### Author:  [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)
#### Post date: [February 12, 2018, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/singer-of-one-of-my-songs-goes-on-to-be-famous-is-there-a-next-step/808671/22 "2018-02-12T17:47:50Z")
Yeah I thought maybe your next step was to release it on iTunes, but you’ve already done that so I too am curious as to what plans you might have.
Best wishes on all this, tho. I would be pretty stoked if this happened to me, too. I took some photos of Andrew Bird “before he was famous” and almost got them published in Rolling Stone. It was a thrill! (They weren’t salacious, just old)
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### Author:  [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)
#### Post date: [February 12, 2018, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/singer-of-one-of-my-songs-goes-on-to-be-famous-is-there-a-next-step/808671/23 "2018-02-12T17:53:46Z")
> [@ZipperJJ](#):
>
> I took some photos of Andrew Bird “before he was famous” and almost got them published in Rolling Stone. It was a thrill! (They weren’t salacious, just old)
Now I can’t help but picture Andrew Bird posing like Madonna in those photos that ended up in Penthouse. Where’s the brain bleach when you need it?!
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### Author:  [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)
#### Post date: [February 12, 2018, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/singer-of-one-of-my-songs-goes-on-to-be-famous-is-there-a-next-step/808671/24 "2018-02-12T18:00:45Z")
Just because you don’t have something in writing doesn’t mean that you didn’t have a contract. Oral agreements happen all the time, and only certain contracts are required to be in writing; the challenge is just proving them if there is a disagreement. You have a bit of a paper trail, in the form of emails, but there is certainly ambiguity in that (as noted upthread, was the agreement to make a song that could only be released as part of an album? Can it be released as a single?).
What to do? Well, as **Beckdawrek** _brilliantly_ suggested, you should call her. Let her know that you own this master recording of a single that you (who own it) have released. You would appreciate her involvement in promoting it, and would be prepared to split X% if she does. Otherwise, you’re going to market it on your own.
At that point, she has options:
1. Tell you, Good luck with your venture, and let it remain an obscure one-off.
2. Tell you she’ll promote it to make some more money (or even better, talk to you possibly about other projects)
What’s the downside? She’ll sue you? Over what? It’s already out there on I-Tunes, because you own it. As long as you don’t go talking up an endorsement you don’t have, you should be fine. What’s the risk?
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### Author:  [@DooWahDiddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DooWahDiddy)
#### Post date: [February 12, 2018, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/singer-of-one-of-my-songs-goes-on-to-be-famous-is-there-a-next-step/808671/25 "2018-02-12T18:10:45Z")
> [@CarnalK](#):
>
> Frankly, I’m kind of curious what kind of other deals you think you’ll get. It’s either going to be some kind of k-tel “before they were famous” album, a one-off single track on i-tunes or some other artist would re-record it (in which case it has nothig to do with blowing up artist).
> [@ZipperJJ](#):
>
> Yeah I thought maybe your next step was to release it on iTunes, but you’ve already done that so I too am curious as to what plans you might have.
Well maybe that’s it; maybe the only benefit I’ll see is higher iTunes sales. I guess I just thought having a commodity like this would help me get in with a record label, or perhaps with _her_ record label.
The reason I don’t think she’d want to include it once she signs a contract is that she writes her own material and I believe that’s the direction she’ll want to take. However, that might not be up to her, if the record label insists she use certain songs.
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### Author:  [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)
#### Post date: [February 12, 2018, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/singer-of-one-of-my-songs-goes-on-to-be-famous-is-there-a-next-step/808671/26 "2018-02-12T19:41:32Z")
Attorney has been suggested.
How about an agent - do you have one? This is a good time to shop the song around at least that much to try and get one. A reputable agent should be able to represent you in the right places to get more songwriting deals, which I think is what you are really looking for, correct?
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### Author:  [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)
#### Post date: [February 12, 2018, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/singer-of-one-of-my-songs-goes-on-to-be-famous-is-there-a-next-step/808671/27 "2018-02-12T20:33:42Z")
1. Contact an entertainment attorney, giving them the barebones of the story “I did a recording with an artist that is now blowing up”, and schedule a meeting so you can give full details.
2. Talk to attorney.
3. Learn.
Really, in the professional category, those are your next steps here. Contact an attorney who knows their stuff and will give you a listen, talk to them. Let us know what they said.
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### Author:  [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)
#### Post date: [February 12, 2018, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/singer-of-one-of-my-songs-goes-on-to-be-famous-is-there-a-next-step/808671/28 "2018-02-12T22:14:28Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> Why would she _not_ want you to re-release/promote the song? It’s free publicity for her (obvious exception would be something like if she’s now trying to do Disney soundtracks but your song was a Death Metal cover of NWA’s \*Fuck Tha Police \* 🙂 )
>
> ETA - I think there’s nothing immoral about you selling your own music, regardless of who you paid to sing it. No need to feel guilty.
I would buy that just because It would be cool as hell and the anarchist in me knows that song would offend 99.8 percent of humanity…
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### Author:  [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)
#### Post date: [February 13, 2018, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/singer-of-one-of-my-songs-goes-on-to-be-famous-is-there-a-next-step/808671/29 "2018-02-13T01:06:57Z")
My attitude comes down to this: it’s hard as hell to make it in the music business. There are a LOT more people with the talent to make good popular music than will ever have the chance to be heard.
She just got _her_ big break, and can succeed or fail on her merits from here. What you do with the song she cut for you won’t affect her career that much, one way or the other.
Now if that song is quite possibly YOUR shot at a big break, you should fucking take it, AFAIAC. You may never get this good a chance again, and you shouldn’t pass up the opportunity out of some misplaced politeness.
Obviously this is contingent on the law being on your side here, but you’ve already said you’re going to talk with a music lawyer, so you’ll find out if that part’s covered.
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### Author:  [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)
#### Post date: [February 13, 2018, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/singer-of-one-of-my-songs-goes-on-to-be-famous-is-there-a-next-step/808671/30 "2018-02-13T01:41:59Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> Why would she _not_ want you to re-release/promote the song? It’s free publicity for her (obvious exception would be something like if she’s now trying to do Disney soundtracks but your song was a Death Metal cover of NWA’s \*Fuck Tha Police \* 🙂 )
> .
Hmmm, [takes a peek at DooWahDiddy’s homepage] Adele sings Fuck Tha Police with piano and bass accompaniment?
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### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [February 13, 2018, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/singer-of-one-of-my-songs-goes-on-to-be-famous-is-there-a-next-step/808671/31 "2018-02-13T03:09:03Z")
Legally, you do have a contract with her. A contract doesn’t inherently need 15 pages of fine print written by a lawyer and full of “the party of the first part” and so on. A contract is just an agreement between two people that involves consideration (i.e., something of benefit) for both of them. You got your consideration (the recording), she got her consideration (whatever it was you paid her), and you both agreed: That’s a contract. Even an oral contract, with nothing in writing at all, is still a contract (and if you still have copies of those e-mails, it’s not an entirely oral contract). The writing and the legalese and so on make things easier to resolve if there’s eventually a disagreement, but they aren’t actually necessary. Though, of course, it would be easiest of all if there isn’t any disagreement at all, so it’s probably a good idea to contact her (or her agent or lawyers).
As for morally, think of it this way: Suppose that she hits it big enough that some major record label decides that they want to put together an album of all the stuff she did before her breakout, and they do their own research, and they stumble across your little project and contact you. Would you say no to them? I’m not sure why you would.
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### Author:  [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)
#### Post date: [February 13, 2018, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/singer-of-one-of-my-songs-goes-on-to-be-famous-is-there-a-next-step/808671/32 "2018-02-13T07:53:35Z")
> [@Chronos](#):
>
> As for morally, think of it this way: Suppose that she hits it big enough that some major record label decides that they want to put together an album of all the stuff she did before her breakout, and they do their own research, and they stumble across your little project and contact you. Would you say no to them? I’m not sure why you would.
The whole point of his moral quandary is whether it’s right to take make money off his singer getting famous and “wouldn’t want to do anything she didn’t want me to do”. Your “what if” removes it entirely.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [February 13, 2018, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/singer-of-one-of-my-songs-goes-on-to-be-famous-is-there-a-next-step/808671/33 "2018-02-13T09:01:42Z")
> [@DooWahDiddy](#):
>
> The reason I don’t think she’d want to include it once she signs a contract is that she writes her own material and I believe that’s the direction she’ll want to take.
Lots of popular artists who are known for writing their own songs do so with others (e.g. Taylor Swift), she may be happy to work with you again if her initial experience was good, this may, in fact, be a better route to being a songwriter for you than just pushing your own stuff. You could be the next Max Martin.
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### Author:  [@Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tired_and_Cranky)
#### Post date: [February 13, 2018, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/singer-of-one-of-my-songs-goes-on-to-be-famous-is-there-a-next-step/808671/34 "2018-02-13T14:21:35Z")
> [@DooWahDiddy](#):
>
> In 2016 I released an album of 12 different songs sung by 12 different singers; all different styles, etc. One of the singers has recently blown up in a big way; she sang a song in a major motion picture and is now fielding all sorts of record label offers. I own the masters to my recordings, and I’m wondering what my options are, legally and/or morally?
>
> I’m proud of my song, and the recording quality is excellent. Does she like it? I don’t know, it was a work-for-hire.
You may own the masters, that is the physical recording, but there is a very different question of whether you own the copyrights. Your contracts with the composer and the recording artists might give you some insight into whether you own the copyrights.
You say it’s a work for hire. That is a defined term in copyright law in the U.S. with very particular requirements:
> [@17 U.S.C. § 101](#):
>
> (1) a work prepared by an employee within the scope of his or her employment; or (2) a work specially ordered or commissioned for use as a contribution to a collective work, as a part of a motion picture or other audiovisual work, as a translation, as a supplementary work, as a compilation, as an instructional text, as a test, as answer material for a test, or as an atlas, if the parties expressly agree in a written instrument signed by them that the work shall be considered a work made for hire. [emphasis added]
So do you have a work for hire under that definition?
> [@DooWahDiddy](#):
>
> Thanks guys, this is all good advice. There are several reasons I could see that she might not want me to re-release/promote the song; she wouldn’t receive further compensation for it (unless I paid her as a gesture of goodwill), she might not like the song, her new record label might not want recordings they don’t own “out there”, etc. Of course, it already _is_ out there, just on a much smaller scale. The iTunes version of the song has sold many more downloads than usual this month, though, without me doing anything, so people are obviously searching her name.
>
> Now it’s time for admitting my own humbling, foolish, frustrating mistake: I didn’t sign a contract with her. I have emails documenting our arrangement (you record my song for a fee, I put it on my album and online), but other than that it was handshake-only. She was a friend of a friend and I was stupid, not much more to say about that.
Based on this, it’s unclear to me whether you have a signed contract designating this as a work for hire. Issues I can see include the clarity of these emails to document that this was a work for hire, whether an email from her or any of the other musicians counts as a signature, whether you have all the “signatures” from every musician on the recording, and whether in any of these “handshake” agreements you made any ongoing promises.
Yes, you need to talk to a good entertainment intellectual property lawyer. Then, take that lawyer’s advice.
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### Author:  [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)
#### Post date: [February 13, 2018, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/singer-of-one-of-my-songs-goes-on-to-be-famous-is-there-a-next-step/808671/35 "2018-02-13T17:04:57Z")
I was under the impression that DooWaDiddy is the composer himself.
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### Author:  [@DooWahDiddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DooWahDiddy)
#### Post date: [February 14, 2018, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/singer-of-one-of-my-songs-goes-on-to-be-famous-is-there-a-next-step/808671/36 "2018-02-14T01:44:40Z")
Sorry if I was unclear; yes, I wrote the lyrics and music to all the songs. They are copyrighted and listed with ASCAP under my name.
I guarantee you I won’t have any problems with the musicians. For the singer, I went back and looked at my emails, and she said, back in 2016, “For album cuts, my rate is [redacted] flat; no worries about a sales percentage”. So even though I wasn’t smart enough to draw up an official contract, that seems pretty cut-and-dry. Of course who knows, I might make all of $200 on this newfound fame of hers, but on the other hand if I find myself in a windfall I would probably still give her some of it.
I’ve reached out to a few music lawyers and am waiting to hear back. I’ve also reached out to the singer to say congratulations, with the intention of mentioning future work and plans if/when she responds. Stay tuned!
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### Author:  [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)
#### Post date: [February 14, 2018, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/singer-of-one-of-my-songs-goes-on-to-be-famous-is-there-a-next-step/808671/37 "2018-02-14T02:12:08Z")
I don’t have any advice to add, so I’ll just say I’m eagerly anticipating seeing what song this is, and what artist it is. (Obviously, it’s good that you’re exercising discretion in not mentioning those details until you get in touch with her.)
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### Author:  [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)
#### Post date: [February 14, 2018, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/singer-of-one-of-my-songs-goes-on-to-be-famous-is-there-a-next-step/808671/38 "2018-02-14T02:29:10Z")
I’m curious to hear the result of this, as well. I don’t think there is anything you should be morally or ethically worried about here. I would say that I think you’re likely in the clear legally, but I’m not a lawyer. Best of luck!
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### Author:  [@DooWahDiddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DooWahDiddy)
#### Post date: [February 17, 2018, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/singer-of-one-of-my-songs-goes-on-to-be-famous-is-there-a-next-step/808671/39 "2018-02-17T17:34:58Z")
Okay, I spoke to a few lawyers and producers, and they all agree that yes, I should feel fine about distributing and promoting the song. If any problems arise in the future I can deal with them then, but they did not foresee any; she agreed to a flat fee and no royalties, and something like this is a great thing to happen to a non-singing songwriter such as myself.
So, for those interested, you can find the song on iTunes [here](https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/so-much-more-the-songs-of-brandon-sturiale/1158635242); it’s called “Returning the Favor”, and it’s sung by Loren Allred, who sings “Never Enough” in the film _The Greatest Showman_. Thanks for listening and for contributing your thoughts!
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### Author:  [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)
#### Post date: [February 17, 2018, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/singer-of-one-of-my-songs-goes-on-to-be-famous-is-there-a-next-step/808671/40 "2018-02-17T21:35:30Z")
Cool!
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