# Single Chinese male/female ratios now @ 120/100. How will this effect their society? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 20, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-chinese-male-female-ratios-now-120-100-how-will-this-effect-their-society/493767 "2009-04-20T19:55:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-chinese-male-female-ratios-now-120-100-how-will-this-effect-their-society/493767/41 "2009-04-21T19:47:17Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > I get that traditional Chinese families depend on the youngsters for support in their later years, for this reason alone a male child is preferred because they have more earning potential, but it seems obvious to me that having a girl instead of a boy increases the chances that your child will find a mate that can support the family later. > > Why is this still not the case? Traditionally, the wife becomes part of her husband’s family, even living with them – this includes supporting his parents in their old age, rather than hers. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Controvert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@The\_Controvert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Controvert)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-chinese-male-female-ratios-now-120-100-how-will-this-effect-their-society/493767/42 "2009-04-21T19:57:08Z")
> [@elmwood](#): > > In our own culture, one might see a similar phenomenon among the geek/gamer/con/Slashdot/Monty Python-quoter crowd. Lots of socially inept men (as seen by the outside world), with far fewer women. What are the dating and mating dynamics of that crowd? As I mentioned in [post 23](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11058100&postcount=23), plenty of porn solves the problem. Although the Chinese govt could also supplement that plan by providing subsidized video games, Dungeons and Dragons books, and Monty Python DVDs to the populace. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-chinese-male-female-ratios-now-120-100-how-will-this-effect-their-society/493767/43 "2009-04-21T19:58:59Z")
> [@elmwood](#): > > In our own culture, one might see a similar phenomenon among the geek/gamer/con/Slashdot/Monty Python-quoter crowd. Lots of socially inept men (as seen by the outside world), with far fewer women. What are the dating and mating dynamics of that crowd? They have trouble getting women. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-chinese-male-female-ratios-now-120-100-how-will-this-effect-their-society/493767/44 "2009-04-21T21:24:30Z")
> [@Regallag\_The\_Axe](#): > > Yes, the expression I’ve heard is “Heaven is high, but the Emperor is in Beijing”. Though I’m not sure weather this is due to trouble exerting such control over rural areas, or if it’s just an issue of “What can we possibly do to those on the bottom economic rung of society?” There are some exceptions but even in the rural areas the policy is enforced in a draconian way. We have an adopted daughter from China, and there are many cases (tens of thousands each year) of infant girls (or less than fully healthy boys or girls) being abandoned so that the parents can try to have a healthy boy. Sometimes the parents will abandon two or even three girls. Often it is easier to abandon a baby than get an ultrasound to tell you the gender so that you can abort, because doing the ultrasound requires a medical professional who is prepared to break the law. In the rural areas you are allowed to have a second child if the first one is a girl, but not if the first is a boy. In the urban areas it is one child, period. This is really the source of the gender imbalance. There are lots of older-girl+younger-boy families, and lots of only-boy families, fewer two girl families, but very few only-girl families. You may have to pay a fine for the second child if the first one is a girl, but not usually a ruinious fine. If you have two girls and go for the third, fire rains down on your head. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-chinese-male-female-ratios-now-120-100-how-will-this-effect-their-society/493767/45 "2009-04-21T21:26:11Z")
> [@The\_Controvert](#): > > As I mentioned in [post 23](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11058100&postcount=23), plenty of porn solves the problem. Although the Chinese govt could also supplement that plan by providing subsidized video games, Dungeons and Dragons books, and Monty Python DVDs to the populace. Onanism doesn’t breed the next generation, so no it doesn’t even remotely solve the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2009, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-chinese-male-female-ratios-now-120-100-how-will-this-effect-their-society/493767/46 "2009-04-21T21:54:34Z")
> [@kenner116](#): > > Working abroad would probably be a good option for some of these men. It would only be a matter of time before Chinese immigration would be restricted. There aren’t many nations who would be happy to solve China’s problem by taking on a female deficit themselves. There are more surplus men in China than there are women in the United States, much less young women of childbearing age. If any nation were to start restricting Chinese men from immigrating there, other nations would likely follow suit. “Them foreigners is after our wimmenfolk” is ever the rallying cry of the racists and xenophobes, and in that case, it might actually be true. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-chinese-male-female-ratios-now-120-100-how-will-this-effect-their-society/493767/47 "2009-04-22T07:18:30Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Onanism doesn’t breed the next generation, so no it doesn’t even remotely solve the problem. But “breeding the next generation” is hardly a problem in China. The obvious solution is to promote homosexuality and legalize same-sex marriage . . . for men only. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-chinese-male-female-ratios-now-120-100-how-will-this-effect-their-society/493767/48 "2009-04-22T11:11:55Z")
> [@Mighty\_Mouse](#): > > There are some exceptions but even in the rural areas the policy is enforced in a draconian way. We have an adopted daughter from China, and there are many cases (tens of thousands each year) of infant girls (or less than fully healthy boys or girls) being abandoned so that the parents can try to have a healthy boy. Sometimes the parents will abandon two or even three girls. Often it is easier to abandon a baby than get an ultrasound to tell you the gender so that you can abort, because doing the ultrasound requires a medical professional who is prepared to break the law. In the rural areas you are allowed to have a second child if the first one is a girl, but not if the first is a boy. In the urban areas it is one child, period. This is really the source of the gender imbalance. There are lots of older-girl+younger-boy families, and lots of only-boy families, fewer two girl families, but very few only-girl families. You may have to pay a fine for the second child if the first one is a girl, but not usually a ruinious fine. If you have two girls and go for the third, fire rains down on your head. This is a pretty good summary of the actual practice in China. I noticed this the first day of school when my oldest daughter was at her local chinese school. Lined up by classes (each class had 40 or so kids), each class had 1 or 2 more girls than boys. I didn’t see nor have I seen anything like 20% more. I personally have 3 girls. 2&3 are twins so that doesn’t count. when China wife was pregnant with the twins, we did have to swear to the family planning that we would give up the Chinese citizenship of #1 (it was a pain in the ass mainly by the US government to keep dual citizenship). The family planning people all have metrics and held accountable to them. You have to have a certificate from family planning before being treated in a hospital or the normal chinese health system. In the cities, it’s not overly difficult to have an ultrasound. Certainly not if you can afford a foreign clinic, but that ultrasound might be worth several months of a purely local worker wage. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-chinese-male-female-ratios-now-120-100-how-will-this-effect-their-society/493767/49 "2009-04-22T11:33:26Z")
[quote=“China\_Guy, post:48, topic:493767”] I noticed this the first day of school when my oldest daughter was at her local chinese school. Lined up by classes (each class had 40 or so kids), each class had 1 or 2 more girls than boys. I didn’t see nor have I seen anything like 20% more. QUOTE] I think you mean 1 or 2 more boys than girls, rather than the other way around. You must be either in northern China or in a large-ish city. In Guixi, Jiangxi where my daughter is from, it is almost 2-1 boys in the schools. You don’t even have to count. You can just see the imbalance with the naked eye. The problem is most acute in the “rural” south which in China includes places with hundreds of thousands of residents, mostly engaged in industrial work, but which are still called “villages”. They would be called medium sized cities in the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/848f3c/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Dunlop)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-chinese-male-female-ratios-now-120-100-how-will-this-effect-their-society/493767/50 "2009-04-22T12:50:19Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Do you consider this to be a serious post? I didn’t consider your initial dismissal of the idea as serious because the conclusion you drew was exactly opposite the one supported by the argument you made. You basically said: With many wives, each family can have many children. With many husbands, each family can have very few children. China has a massive over-population problem and in fact enforces a one-child per family rule. Therefore, polyandy would never work as well as polygamy would work in China. 😕😕😕 Were \*you \* at all serious? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-chinese-male-female-ratios-now-120-100-how-will-this-effect-their-society/493767/51 "2009-04-22T14:49:27Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](#): > > You basically said: > > With many wives, each family can have many children. > > With many husbands, each family can have very few children. > > China has a massive over-population problem and in fact enforces a one-child per family rule. > > Therefore, polyandy would never work as well as polygamy would work in China. > > 😕😕😕 > > Were \*you \* at all serious? I assume he was saying was that Chinese men wouldn’t go along with the idea, precisely because it reduces the likelihood that they’ll have a son. If they were willing to accept the possibility of not having a male heir, they wouldn’t be in this mess. This is assuming that they wouldn’t accept the other husband’s son as their own, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-chinese-male-female-ratios-now-120-100-how-will-this-effect-their-society/493767/52 "2009-04-22T15:13:05Z")
I had read somewhere that such an overabundance of young men without prospect of gaining partners was one of the instigating factors in the Boxer Rebellion - they tend to form gangs or other violent ideology-based groups. The current heavy-handed Chinese government may be a check on this happening today, but I’d bet only a partial one. Imagine if Islamism gets a hold, for example (not that I think it likely, but there’s always another group of irrational loons to join somewhere or other). ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-chinese-male-female-ratios-now-120-100-how-will-this-effect-their-society/493767/53 "2009-04-22T15:39:12Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > I assume he was saying was that Chinese men wouldn’t go along with the idea, precisely because it reduces the likelihood that they’ll have a son. If they were willing to accept the possibility of not having a male heir, they wouldn’t be in this mess. > > This is assuming that they wouldn’t accept the other husband’s son as their own, of course. This, exactly. It’s funny to listen to the American liberal cosmopoles who cannot fathom that traditional people actually value having children comment about onanism or homosexuality as being solutions. What about the heterosexual men who want to have children to take care of them when they get old? I guess people don’t realize that not having children in China is a bit of a death sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/848f3c/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Dunlop)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-chinese-male-female-ratios-now-120-100-how-will-this-effect-their-society/493767/54 "2009-04-22T16:42:35Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > I assume he was saying was that Chinese men wouldn’t go along with the idea, precisely because it reduces the likelihood that they’ll have a son. If they were willing to accept the possibility of not having a male heir, they wouldn’t be in this mess. > > This is assuming that they wouldn’t accept the other husband’s son as their own, of course. Of course it wouldn’t be ideal. The whole point of this thread is that the Chinese have gotten themselves into a serious mess. If there were an obvious option to just have a wife and male heir of course they’d do it. And I’m sure a lot of Chinese men will leave to find work and a mate elsewhere, and maybe the wealthier ones can import women, and some will remain single and disaffected. My point is that it is silly to flippantly dismiss the idea as unappealing when it’s clearly a situation with only unappealing solutions, particularly because **mswas** initially dismissed it as less appealing than having multiple wives. [QUOTE=mswas] There is a reason why polygamy is more common than polyandry. [/QUOTE] The reason is power imbalance and a history of treating women as less valuable than men. Not some stupid notion about the concept of polygamy being inherently superior when there are multiple wives than multiple husbands. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-chinese-male-female-ratios-now-120-100-how-will-this-effect-their-society/493767/55 "2009-04-22T16:49:38Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](#): > > The reason is power imbalance and a history of treating women as less valuable than men. Not some stupid notion about the concept of polygamy being inherently superior when there are multiple wives than multiple husbands. I’m talking about rationally, not ideologically. This stuff about keeping women subjugated is puerile proto-femininist nonsense. The reason is because 1 husband can breed with many women, whereas one woman and multiple men can only breed with one at a time. A pregnant woman is pregnant is pregnant, only one husband at a time can make her so. Breeding has historically been the method by which one can dominate the species, the more you breed the higher your status, the more impact you have upon history. The treatment of the relative value of men/women is a byproduct and not the goal. The point that you seem to be missing because you want to point out that you paid attention in your gender studies class, is that having multiple husbands with one woman doesn’t solve the problem, because the extraneous husband doesn’t get to breed and therefore has no children to attend him when he gets older. So your ‘solution’ requires the one child in a family with two husbands and one woman to now care for potentially three parents and six grandparents. It’s not an elegant solution by any stretch of the imagination. The problem isn’t even remotely about getting laid, it’s about having a family and children. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/848f3c/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Dunlop)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-chinese-male-female-ratios-now-120-100-how-will-this-effect-their-society/493767/56 "2009-04-22T18:16:45Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I’m talking about rationally, not ideologically. This stuff about keeping women subjugated is puerile proto-femininist nonsense. > > The reason is because 1 husband can breed with many women, whereas one woman and multiple men can only breed with one at a time. A pregnant woman is pregnant is pregnant, only one husband at a time can make her so. Breeding has historically been the method by which one can dominate the species, the more you breed the higher your status, the more impact you have upon history. But they’re trying to _limit_ breeding in China. Multiple wives is less desirable in China now because it would lead to bigger families. Multiple husbands would lead to smaller families. It doesn’t have anything to do with historical results, it’s about the current predicament. Maybe the Chinese can open 401(k)s and nursing homes to address the care for the elderly problem. Breeding more kids, especially boys, doesn’t seem to be a rational solution. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-chinese-male-female-ratios-now-120-100-how-will-this-effect-their-society/493767/57 "2009-04-22T18:35:53Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](#): > > But they’re trying to _limit_ breeding in China. Multiple wives is less desirable in China now because it would lead to bigger families. Multiple husbands would lead to smaller families. It doesn’t have anything to do with historical results, it’s about the current predicament. > > Maybe the Chinese can open 401(k)s and nursing homes to address the care for the elderly problem. Breeding more kids, especially boys, doesn’t seem to be a rational solution. Maybe that’s the rational response, but is it the likely response, given human nature? I have my doubts. Based on what I know about human nature, I think the likely response is that the men will fight for the few women available. Ed ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2009, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-chinese-male-female-ratios-now-120-100-how-will-this-effect-their-society/493767/58 "2009-04-22T18:44:07Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](#): > > But they’re trying to _limit_ breeding in China. Multiple wives is less desirable in China now because it would lead to bigger families. Multiple husbands would lead to smaller families. It doesn’t have anything to do with historical results, it’s about the current predicament. The _government_ is trying to limit breeding. This doesn’t help the poor young man coasting up to middle-age who has failed to provide for his aging parents by producing an heir who will care for all of them when they grow old. Multiple husbands leads to a single child who has an even greater burden to care for the older generation. Instead of just his parents he has this other old man and his parents that he has to care for now. > [@](#): > > Maybe the Chinese can open 401(k)s and nursing homes to address the care for the elderly problem. Breeding more kids, especially boys, doesn’t seem to be a rational solution. This isn’t actually the solution you think it is. If a society is overwhelmed by old people there are not enough young people to staff the old folks home, and if there was then their ability to actually produce things suffers. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-chinese-male-female-ratios-now-120-100-how-will-this-effect-their-society/493767/59 "2009-04-23T09:41:44Z")
Personally as a straight male(Just so you dont think that this is wishful thinking on my part) I think that there will be a large rise in the numbers of gay men. And good luck to them. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2009, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-chinese-male-female-ratios-now-120-100-how-will-this-effect-their-society/493767/60 "2009-04-23T09:58:52Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > Personally as a straight male(Just so you dont think that this is wishful thinking on my part) I think that there will be a large rise in the numbers of gay men. > And good luck to them. Doubt it. There will however be a large rise in trafficking women from inside China and from poorer neighbouring countries; North Korea, Burma, Nepal, possible Russia and there will be an increase in abduction of women and of prostitution. Those men having to go without women will mostly be those poorer off, as the more successful men will never have a problem attracting women. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-chinese-male-female-ratios-now-120-100-how-will-this-effect-their-society/493767.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-chinese-male-female-ratios-now-120-100-how-will-this-effect-their-society/493767.md?page=4)