# Single mother rejected by Air Force - claims they're encouraging abortion **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 25, 2012, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-mother-rejected-by-air-force-claims-theyre-encouraging-abortion/638834 "2012-10-25T15:38:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2012, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-mother-rejected-by-air-force-claims-theyre-encouraging-abortion/638834/21 "2012-10-25T18:06:15Z")
Too late to edit: It looks as though she did finish her degree, as it says she’s working as a pediatric nurse. So really, her situation is enviable as comapred to a lot of new Moms. Hmmmnn. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2012, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-mother-rejected-by-air-force-claims-theyre-encouraging-abortion/638834/22 "2012-10-25T18:14:22Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > One has to wonder if this policy might not have originated as a morality-based rule intended to push young men to either marry the mother or stay out of the service. Or maybe to ensure that young men and women who enter the military and are training and may well be deployed in a harsh, demanding and physically unforgiving environment which might well include loaded weapons are focused at the task at hand. ---
**Author:** ![redtail23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3e96dc/32.png) [@redtail23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/redtail23)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2012, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-mother-rejected-by-air-force-claims-theyre-encouraging-abortion/638834/23 "2012-10-25T18:22:23Z")
I know someone who was looking into military options for her stepkids just a couple weeks ago. If you’re a single parent and you really want to enlist, you can sign over parental rights to someone else for the duration of your enlistment. I’ve got no problem with that. You decided to have a kid - you deal with it. The Armed Forces ain’t got time to play nanny. She needs to get over her self-entitled little snit. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2012, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-mother-rejected-by-air-force-claims-theyre-encouraging-abortion/638834/24 "2012-10-25T18:29:22Z")
Two questions tangental to this. 1. Is this whole thing about pregnancy while being deploy why the urban legend started that women in the military are required to be on birth control while serving? 2. What if a person has a non-same-sex domestic partner? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2012, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-mother-rejected-by-air-force-claims-theyre-encouraging-abortion/638834/25 "2012-10-25T18:48:08Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > I can see how this really is almost a forced abortion. If she doesn’t, she’ll have a $92k debt, still without a degree, a new baby to care for and a dishonorable discharge to explain in every interview. I guess they might make it a medical - either way it’s a big mark against you with most companies. > > OTOH, it’s really more about forcing marriage than forcing abortion. One has to wonder if this policy might not have originated as a morality-based rule intended to push young men to either marry the mother or stay out of the service. Even assuming that a $92,000 bill is “force” - and those of us who borrowed money to finance our educations will chuckle hollowly at that - it’s still not a forced abortion, unless adoption was banned while I wasn’t looking. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2012, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-mother-rejected-by-air-force-claims-theyre-encouraging-abortion/638834/26 "2012-10-25T19:48:29Z")
Forcing/requiring her to pay for the education that the Air Force provided under the contract - that she can no longer honor - helps to kepp or set the precedent so that others - who get the Services to pay for their education PRIOR to actual duty don’t use similar excuses for getting out of the contract. ETA - as far as I know - this penalty would be for anyone that similarly was not able to honor the contract. As for it forcing abortion? not even close - she has a choice to make - if she wanted to be a nurse, then she would have been paying for the education anyway - and is apparently already benefiting from it. ETA - I’ll never quite understand the uproar over not allowing single parents to join - its designed to prevent undue hardship on both the joiner and the services - could you imagine the uproar that would happen should this young mother be sent to Afganistan while pregnant? or worse being sent 6 weeks after birth and then something happens to mother or child ? people have an amazing ability to create double standards. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2012, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-mother-rejected-by-air-force-claims-theyre-encouraging-abortion/638834/27 "2012-10-25T20:00:25Z")
> [@simster](#): > > . . . > > ETA - I’ll never quite understand the uproar over not allowing single parents to join - its designed to prevent undue hardship on both the joiner and the services - could you imagine the uproar that would happen should this young mother be sent to Afganistan while pregnant? **or worse being sent 6 weeks after birth and then something happens to mother or child ?** > > people have an amazing ability to create double standards. Would that really be any different if she were married? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2012, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-mother-rejected-by-air-force-claims-theyre-encouraging-abortion/638834/28 "2012-10-25T20:15:22Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > Would that really be any different if she were married? To some degree yes - but then atleast the child has one (assumed) natural parent left to deal with its needs or the absence of the mother. This is the point of turning over parenting rights in these cases - which I assume would still be an option even for this young lady that she has declined (or if she is actually pregnant when she was due to start active duty - that would require special treatment and facilities as compared to the other recruits - hardly a fair situation or one conducive to mother/childs health). ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-mother-rejected-by-air-force-claims-theyre-encouraging-abortion/638834/29 "2012-10-26T03:28:10Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Exactly. Going through basic training with a 3-month-old child would be incredibly hard, but the military is 100% ok with that as long as the servicemember is **married**. If you’re not married, they won’t let you try, regardless of your support structure… I wasn’t aware of that (I knew service academy applicants aren’t allowed to be married or have dependents). Does this apply to both sexes (meaning men with out-of-wedlock children can’t join either)? ---
**Author:** ![ENugent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4af34b/32.png) [@ENugent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ENugent)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-mother-rejected-by-air-force-claims-theyre-encouraging-abortion/638834/30 "2012-10-26T03:42:04Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > I wasn’t aware of that (I knew service academy applicants aren’t allowed to be married or have dependents). Does this apply to both sexes (meaning men with out-of-wedlock children can’t join either)? How about a man in a committed gay relationship who lives in a state where he cannot marry? For that matter, what if he is married? As far as I know, the Federal government doesn’t view him as married for any federal purpose. If he and his partner adopt a child, can he no longer enlist? Same for lesbians? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-mother-rejected-by-air-force-claims-theyre-encouraging-abortion/638834/31 "2012-10-26T04:12:23Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > I wasn’t aware of that (I knew service academy applicants aren’t allowed to be married or have dependents). Does this apply to both sexes (meaning men with out-of-wedlock children can’t join either)? Are they a single parent and sole caregiver? The mother of a child has a different relationship most of the time in a single parent scenario - Its not the having the child out of wedlock that is the problem - it is being the sole parent that causes the issues that can (and do) prevent the recruit from being ready for duty. Folks also seem to forget that the rules is not meant to punish the ‘out of wedlock parents’ - they are designed to ensure that the child is cared for as well as the fitness of the service member AND the family - military service is not always a walk in the garden. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-mother-rejected-by-air-force-claims-theyre-encouraging-abortion/638834/32 "2012-10-26T04:18:10Z")
> [@ENugent](#): > > How about a man in a committed gay relationship who lives in a state where he cannot marry? For that matter, what if he is married? As far as I know, the Federal government doesn’t view him as married for any federal purpose. If he and his partner adopt a child, can he no longer enlist? Same for lesbians? Until recently, most of the Gay and Lesbian recruits would not have been open enough about their relationship for these scenarios to play out - as soon as we have full federal backing for these to be legitimate\* relationships, the same rules and guidelines will fall in place for them - You are also still assuming that the “having a child” is what is at issue here - it is the “being the sole caregiver of said child” that is causing the issue for the recruit in the OP. \*in the eyes of the law. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-mother-rejected-by-air-force-claims-theyre-encouraging-abortion/638834/33 "2012-10-26T04:25:08Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > I can see how this really is almost a forced abortion. If she doesn’t, she’ll have a $92k debt, still without a degree, a new baby to care for and a dishonorable discharge to explain in every interview. I guess they might make it a medical - either way it’s a big mark against you with most companies. Where are you getting the dishonorable discharge bit? ---
**Author:** ![ENugent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4af34b/32.png) [@ENugent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ENugent)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-mother-rejected-by-air-force-claims-theyre-encouraging-abortion/638834/34 "2012-10-26T04:32:56Z")
> [@simster](#): > > You are also still assuming that the “having a child” is what is at issue here - it is the “being the sole caregiver of said child” that is causing the issue for the recruit in the OP. Well, no. I have a pair of heterosexual friends who are not married, but live together and have two daughters together (both names on the birth certificate, etc). My understanding from previous postings in this thread is that this policy would apply if one of them wanted to enlist. But they could make the problem go away by getting married. On the other hand, a gay couple with children presumably cannot make the problem go away by getting married, at least not until the Supreme Court overturns the Defense of Marriage Act. I realize that this is a relatively new problem, given the recent demise of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell, but I would still like to know how it would shake out. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-mother-rejected-by-air-force-claims-theyre-encouraging-abortion/638834/35 "2012-10-26T13:33:13Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > I wasn’t aware of that (I knew service academy applicants aren’t allowed to be married or have dependents). Does this apply to both sexes (meaning men with out-of-wedlock children can’t join either)? Yes, the policy applies equally to both sexes. In practice, of course, most young men in that situation are perfectly content to let their baby momma’s have sole custody, so it’s not an issue. Joint custody would be an issue. Recruiters also have to make sure that child support commitments, if applicable, have been and will continue to be met. [QUOTE=ENugent] On the other hand, a gay couple with children presumably cannot make the problem go away by getting married, at least not until the Supreme Court overturns the Defense of Marriage Act. I realize that this is a relatively new problem, given the recent demise of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell, but I would still like to know how it would shake out. [/QUOTE] They would be SOL. The military does not currently recognize any gay marriages for any purposes, so the single parent rules would come into play. Presumably, one of the fathers would sign over sole custody rights to the other father, and then at least one of them could join. Until sexual orientation becomes a protected class, that’s how it’s going to be. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-mother-rejected-by-air-force-claims-theyre-encouraging-abortion/638834/36 "2012-10-26T14:44:48Z")
> [@ENugent](#): > > Well, no. I have a pair of heterosexual friends who are not married, but live together and have two daughters together (both names on the birth certificate, etc). My understanding from previous postings in this thread is that this policy would apply if one of them wanted to enlist. But they could make the problem go away by getting married. > > On the other hand, a gay couple with children presumably cannot make the problem go away by getting married, at least not until the Supreme Court overturns the Defense of Marriage Act. I realize that this is a relatively new problem, given the recent demise of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell, but I would still like to know how it would shake out. on both of these - assuming the child is left in the legal care of a gaurdian - it would have no impact on the recruits abilty to join. They are not required to “'get married” - they are required to ensure the care of the child is maintained properly with out affecting the recruit’s ability to do his/her duty. Clearly having a “married partner” makes these items much simpler to deal with - the rules are already well known and spelled out - which is all the more reason that marriage should be a right for everyone, reguardless of orientation. ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-mother-rejected-by-air-force-claims-theyre-encouraging-abortion/638834/37 "2012-10-26T15:40:01Z")
As a single father, I can’t even imagine how I could do something like join the military. I can’t work nights or even take a job where I get off work after 5:30 because my daughters after school care closes at six. I’ve had to pass up awesome job opportunities because of the hours or travel requirements. I guess this girl is in a different position. But she still signed a contract. The AF invested time and money and found out they weren’t getting what they had signed up for. She agreed to notify them of medical changes but didn’t. I don’t see how she has a case. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-mother-rejected-by-air-force-claims-theyre-encouraging-abortion/638834/38 "2012-10-26T16:12:10Z")
> [@ENugent](#): > > Well, no. I have a pair of heterosexual friends who are not married, but live together and have two daughters together (both names on the birth certificate, etc). My understanding from previous postings in this thread is that this policy would apply if one of them wanted to enlist. But they could make the problem go away by getting married. . . Or by signing over parental rights to their SO or someone else. Signing over rights means that, whatever their whole support system entails, there’s at least one person who is legally authorized to make decisions regarding the child. That includes everything from life and death medical emergency decisions to signing field trip forms. ---
**Author:** ![solosam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@solosam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solosam)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-mother-rejected-by-air-force-claims-theyre-encouraging-abortion/638834/39 "2012-10-26T16:22:16Z")
> [@](#): > > Does this apply to both sexes (meaning men with out-of-wedlock children can’t join either)? Yes. I’ve seen single parent male soldiers discharged because they couldn’t come up with a family care plan. Also, someone used the word “Dishonorable Discharge.” You pretty much have to be a felon to get a “dishonorable.” Discharges for family reasons are likely to be Honorable. If the commander totally hates you and really believes you got a baby just to get out of your obligations, they might try to give you a General (Under Honorable Conditions.) They also have Entry-Level Discharges for people who were released so early in their careers that it’s impossible to fairly evaluate their service. I don’t know whether the cadet in the OP qualified for this or not. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2012, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-mother-rejected-by-air-force-claims-theyre-encouraging-abortion/638834/40 "2012-10-26T16:51:28Z")
> [@solosam](#): > > Yes. I’ve seen single parent male soldiers discharged because they couldn’t come up with a family care plan. > > Also, someone used the word “Dishonorable Discharge.” You pretty much have to be a felon to get a “dishonorable.” Discharges for family reasons are likely to be Honorable. If the commander totally hates you and really believes you got a baby just to get out of your obligations, they might try to give you a General (Under Honorable Conditions.) > > They also have Entry-Level Discharges for people who were released so early in their careers that it’s impossible to fairly evaluate their service. I don’t know whether the cadet in the OP qualified for this or not. I would think the cadet in the OP was never able to join/start - and is therefore on the hook for the cost of the education - since they are trying to spin it to “forced abortion” - it also sounds like she is/was actively pregnant at the tie she was due to start. You get administratively discharged if you fall out during basic/initial stuff - its only after you get past that that the other types of discharges would come into play. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-mother-rejected-by-air-force-claims-theyre-encouraging-abortion/638834.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-mother-rejected-by-air-force-claims-theyre-encouraging-abortion/638834.md?page=3)