# Single-player RPG as complex as WoW? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [March 24, 2009, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-player-rpg-as-complex-as-wow/490555 "2009-03-24T04:41:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![With\_Rye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@With\_Rye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/With_Rye)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2009, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-player-rpg-as-complex-as-wow/490555/1 "2009-03-24T04:41:19Z")
I like WoW a lot, particularly its complex system of crafting/magic/statistics/talents/etc. I mean, I think it’s so cool how everything is so precise that there are spells and talents that just increase a stat, like chance of critical hits, by _fractions of a percentage_ and they’re still significant. If an item lowers the casting cost of a spell by half a second, it’ll be drool-worthy. I haven’t seen anything this _refined_ in any single-player RPG I’ve played. Spells or buffs in those games would be ham-fisted and clunky by comparison, unimaginatively reducing speed by half or doubling fire damage. Does anyone have any recommendations for single-player RPGs that are as complex or more complex than WoW? The closest one I can come up with is Baldur’s Gate II. Are the more recent Final Fantasy games like this? I haven’t played many RPGs and don’t know what’s out there. Please point me to some nice complicated games! ---
**Author:** ![Commander\_Keen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@Commander\_Keen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commander_Keen)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2009, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-player-rpg-as-complex-as-wow/490555/2 "2009-03-24T07:10:07Z")
Not sure if these will exactly line up with the sort of complexity you’re finding and enjoying in WoW (BTW I really like that aspect as well), but when I though of “detailed games”, here’s what I came up with… Fallout 1 and 2, both for the PC, are in my opinion the pinnacles of western-style, turn-based RPGs. They have a great stats system, a bunch of unique and useful skills, a really cool concept of perks (basically specialized abilities that you get as you level up), “traits” (a lot like perks, but you only get them at character creation), and so on. I can’t say enough good things about these games. Fallout 3 is pretty good too, but I’d play them in order. If you’re into SRPGs (games in the style of, for example, Final Fantasy Tactics), check out the Disgaea series for PS2, PS3, DS, and/or PSP. The hallmark of these games is their sometimes-ridiculous affinity for powerleveling and number-raising. For example, in Disgaea each of your characters can reach level 9999 (and this is game where level ~100 is more than enough to defeat the normal end boss)…and then you can return that character back to level 1 again and reach level 9999 in a different class, and so on. Every single item in the game has a randomized dungeon of up to 100 floors contained _within the item itself_ that you can battle through in order to level up the item (yeah, you level up items as well). Oh yeah, and items also have little monsters living inside them that increase the item’s stats; by entering the items and conquering these guys you can move them around and customize your items to your liking. There are tons of classes, both human and monster, with multiple “ranks” of each class. In addition to the main story levels, there are lots of bonus levels that require levels in the thousands to stand a chance. There are 7 or8 weapon types which your characters can gain levels in, learning various skills along the way which of course can level up (basically everything in these games has a level or a number associated with it). These games are powerlevelers’ dreams, and they’re pretty damn funny as well. One genre of games where a high level of complexity and detail is celebrated is [Roguelikes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roguelike). Though they’re not for everyone (the ASCII graphics and die-once-and-you’re-dead, no continuing aspect are offputting to some). Some do have rudimentary graphics available. Since death is permanent, you end up thinking long and hard about every skill point, what gear to wear, which spells to learn, which weapons to enchant, which god to pray to, which animal’s corpse to preserve and eat later (yes, really). My favorites are [TOME](http://www.t-o-m-e.net), [Nethack](http://www.nethack.org), and [ADOM](http://www.adom.de/). Recent Final Fantasy games aren’t particularly detailed or complex the same way WoW is, but I’d still say that FFX is one of the very best console RPGs of all time, so I’d check it out if you haven’t (I thought FFXII was pretty bad, personally, but many liked it, and the combat system is more MMO-like). ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2009, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-player-rpg-as-complex-as-wow/490555/3 "2009-03-24T10:57:39Z")
Oblivion with the right mods can come close to what you want to see. NWN 2 uses the D&D 3.5 edition rules. It might not fit a CRPG quite as nicely as something crafted specifically for it (like WOW’s engine) but it can be quite intricate and involved. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2009, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-player-rpg-as-complex-as-wow/490555/4 "2009-03-24T11:27:14Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > NWN 2 uses the D&D 3.5 edition rules. It might not fit a CRPG quite as nicely as something crafted specifically for it (like WOW’s engine) but it can be quite intricate and involved. Yeah, no kidding. God only knows how much Internet space is taken up by discussions on the “perfect build”, that Holy Grail mix of the right classes, feats, spell levels and items… But I’d say, if you’re looking for something close to WoW yet single player, go for Final Fantasy XII. It’s very MMORPGish in feel, the mechanics and battle strats are quite complex, and the story is nice (if heavily reminiscent of Star Wars). ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2009, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-player-rpg-as-complex-as-wow/490555/5 "2009-03-24T23:31:23Z")
> [@Commander\_Keen](#): > > One genre of games where a high level of complexity and detail is celebrated is [Roguelikes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roguelike). Though they’re not for everyone (the ASCII graphics and die-once-and-you’re-dead, no continuing aspect are offputting to some). Some do have rudimentary graphics available. Since death is permanent, you end up thinking long and hard about every skill point, what gear to wear, which spells to learn, which weapons to enchant, which god to pray to, which animal’s corpse to preserve and eat later (yes, really). My favorites are [TOME](http://www.t-o-m-e.net), [Nethack](http://www.nethack.org), and [ADOM](http://www.adom.de/). For graphics, there’s [Vulture’s Eye and Vulture’s Claw](http://nethack.wikia.com/wiki/Vulture%27s), based on Nethack and its Slash’Em variant, respectively. There have also been commercial Roguelike games, like SSI’s [Dungeon Hack](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeon_Hack). I should find my disks to that and play it in DOS Box. ---
**Author:** ![fluiddruid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-player-rpg-as-complex-as-wow/490555/6 "2009-03-25T12:59:18Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > There have also been commercial Roguelike games, like SSI’s [Dungeon Hack](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeon_Hack). I should find my disks to that and play it in DOS Box. I liked Dungeon Hack, but it can’t really hold a candle to modern roguelikes. My preferred flavor is Zangband, which has multiple towns and dungeons, quests, monster encampments, a sprawling world map, and lots of other cool features. For complexity though, check out Dwarf Fortress. It’s so complex I can’t really even figure it out well enough to play, even if I follow a tutorial. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-player-rpg-as-complex-as-wow/490555/7 "2009-03-25T19:07:07Z")
> [@Commander\_Keen](#): > > If you’re into SRPGs (games in the style of, for example, Final Fantasy Tactics), check out the Disgaea series for PS2, PS3, DS, and/or PSP. The hallmark of these games is their sometimes-ridiculous affinity for powerleveling and number-raising. For example, in Disgaea each of your characters can reach level 9999 (and this is game where level ~100 is more than enough to defeat the normal end boss)…and then you can return that character back to level 1 again and reach level 9999 in a different class, and so on. Every single item in the game has a randomized dungeon of up to 100 floors contained _within the item itself_ that you can battle through in order to level up the item (yeah, you level up items as well). Oh yeah, and items also have little monsters living inside them that increase the item’s stats; by entering the items and conquering these guys you can move them around and customize your items to your liking. There are tons of classes, both human and monster, with multiple “ranks” of each class. In addition to the main story levels, there are lots of bonus levels that require levels in the thousands to stand a chance. There are 7 or8 weapon types which your characters can gain levels in, learning various skills along the way which of course can level up (basically everything in these games has a level or a number associated with it). These games are powerlevelers’ dreams, and they’re pretty damn funny as well. Holy crap. This is what I’ve been craving! Anyone want to review Disgaea 3 for the PS3? IGN says it has pretty horrible graphics/controls - but how much does that get in the way of things? They said it’s not a very big move up from #2, but I’ve never played - is that a big deal? Anyone? ---
**Author:** ![Commander\_Keen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@Commander\_Keen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commander_Keen)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-player-rpg-as-complex-as-wow/490555/8 "2009-03-25T19:56:58Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Holy crap. This is what I’ve been craving! Anyone want to review Disgaea 3 for the PS3? IGN says it has pretty horrible graphics/controls - but how much does that get in the way of things? They said it’s not a very big move up from #2, but I’ve never played - is that a big deal? Anyone? I actually haven’t played the 3rd one yet, but I just skimmed the IGN review, and, assuming that much of the game is similar to the first 2 (which seems to be the case, and in fact seems to be the basis for most of the reviewer’s complaints), I think the issues raised are…well, non-issues. The graphics in Disgaea 1 and 2 are perfectly fine 2D graphics with cute little sprites. 3 looks basically the same. I’m fine with that, I don’t know anyone who plays Disgaea to marvel at the graphics anyway. You can view some gameplay videos to decide yourself. The complaint about bad quality on HDTVs may have some validity, I dunno. I think the interface and camera in the first 2 games are fine. Don’t know what else to say there. Finally, I love a good, compelling story in an RPG, but believe me, the story is NOT why you play a Disgaea game. If you really get into it, you spent the majority of your time on stuff outside of the main storyline anyway. If what I’ve described and what you’ve read appeals to you, I’d say go for it. These games are really fun, and although IGN gave it an unenthusiastic review, it has an 81 on Metacritic, which is pretty damn good. ---
**Author:** ![Wilson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@Wilson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wilson)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-player-rpg-as-complex-as-wow/490555/9 "2009-03-25T21:58:25Z")
> [@Commander\_Keen](#): > > If what I’ve described and what you’ve read appeals to you, I’d say go for it. These games are really fun, and although IGN gave it an unenthusiastic review, it has an 81 on Metacritic, which is pretty damn good. Have you played the PSP version? I’m quite tempted to give it a try, but wonder if it survives the port to the PSP well. ---
**Author:** ![Commander\_Keen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@Commander\_Keen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commander_Keen)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2009, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-player-rpg-as-complex-as-wow/490555/10 "2009-03-26T01:24:41Z")
> [@Wilson](#): > > Have you played the PSP version? I’m quite tempted to give it a try, but wonder if it survives the port to the PSP well. Haven’t played it, but it’s gotten good reviews, and I don’t think too much would have to be changed in the port. Most of the time you’re just moving characters around a grid and selecting things from menus, which can be done just as well on a PSP as on a big TV. ---
**Author:** ![Robin\_Goodfellow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Robin\_Goodfellow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robin_Goodfellow)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-player-rpg-as-complex-as-wow/490555/11 "2009-03-30T00:00:56Z")
The controls on Disgaea 3 aren’t horrible at all - the loose analog sticks make it a bit weird, but you can use the D-pad just fine. It’s actually the best game in the series for a few reasons, tho people who’ve played the first two won’t see a lot that’s new. The DS and PSP versions are pretty good if you’ve got nothing else portable to play, but I’d go with remade versions of Final Fantasy Tactics or Valkyrie Profile, that don’t require a lot of tiny sprites to be rendered on-screen at once. Disgaea’s graphics are pretty simple, but they do look kinda crap on a small screen. As far as complex, extremely well-balanced games go, I’ll have to suggest either Elder Scrolls Oblivion or Diablo II. Both rely on magic weapons and skills with minute stat/skill boosts, and lots of leveling up. The skill trees in WoW are basically high-powered versions of the ones Blizzard had in Diablo. Oblivion is a good choice because you get to gather herbs for alchemy, learn various skills and train in different weapon and armor types, and there are just tons of quests to be found in the game’s infinitely explorable world. ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-player-rpg-as-complex-as-wow/490555/12 "2009-03-31T04:52:45Z")
I like complex RPGs too. Seconding Oblivion (and the Elder Scrolls series in general), Neverwinter Nights (all of them, including NWN 1 and its expansions), the Fallout series, and the Diablo series (while action-RPG more than RPG, the skills system is very much a complex treadmill). There’s also the Dungeon Siege series (a lot like Diablo), other D20 games (the Knights of the Old Republic series was great. I also heard good things about The Witcher but my system can’t handle it), other D&D games (Icewind Dale, Planescape: Torment), Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura… that’s all I got for now. ---
**Author:** ![magnusblitz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@magnusblitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magnusblitz)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-player-rpg-as-complex-as-wow/490555/13 "2009-03-31T04:56:06Z")
Don’t get Dungeon Siege 1 if you’re looking for a “complex” game. It has only 4 classes, two of which have no skill trees at all, and the other two have “skills” that you can basically swap at any time like equpiment. DS2, at least, has skill trees, but I never really got into it so I can’t tell you how it is. Titan Quest is a very nice Diablo 2 clone, though. ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2009, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-player-rpg-as-complex-as-wow/490555/14 "2009-03-31T05:22:35Z")
> [@magnusblitz](#): > > Don’t get Dungeon Siege 1 if you’re looking for a “complex” game. It has only 4 classes, two of which have no skill trees at all, and the other two have “skills” that you can basically swap at any time like equpiment. > > DS2, at least, has skill trees, but I never really got into it so I can’t tell you how it is. Titan Quest is a very nice Diablo 2 clone, though. Right. Totally forgot how simple DS1’s system was. My bad. DS2 is an improvement for sure, though still not as complex as I would’ve liked it.