# Single-Sex Classrooms **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 13, 2002, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-sex-classrooms/128192 "2002-09-13T00:51:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![IzzyR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/2acd7d/32.png) [@IzzyR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IzzyR)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2002, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-sex-classrooms/128192/1 "2002-09-13T00:51:46Z")
[Single-sex classrooms gaining favor](http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/09/12/b2s.02.same.sex.classrooms.ap/index.html) > [@](#): > > Nationally, about 15 public schools have same-sex-only classrooms or are exclusively boys or girls schools, said Dr. Leonard Sax, a psychologist and physician who heads the Maryland-based National Association for Single Sex Public Education. An additional 40 to 50 schools offer single-sex classes but don’t require them, he said. > > Sax predicted the numbers will grow once the government removes a legal cloud over schools with single-sex classrooms. > > The Title IX law prohibits public schools from discriminating on the basis of sex, and schools with single-sex classrooms have tried to avoid a conflict with the law by offering boys and girls an essentially equal education. > > The Education Department is drafting new Title IX regulations to give schools more flexibility to offer single-sex instruction. A final version likely will take effect next year, said department spokesman Dan Langan. > > But Nancy Zirkin, spokeswoman for the American Association of University Women, said her group opposes the change because “separate is never equal.” > > “We would never accept this in a race context. Why in the world are we doing this in a gender context?” Zirkin said. > > The National Education Association, in a letter to the department, said single-sex public education would elevate the “discredited doctrine of `separate but equal’ to official government policy,” promote “harmful and false sex stereotypes” and leave students ill-prepared for the real world. > > NEA staff attorney Cindy Chmielewski added in an interview, “There is nothing out there that can conclusively demonstrate that single-sex education alone improves student achievement.” > > But at Southern Leadership Academy, Assistant Principal Bill Redmon likes the early results of dividing the genders. > > “From what I’ve seen going around the classrooms, it’s much more orderly,” he said during lunchroom duty. “We don’t have the boy-girl hormonal thing going on.” The only thing I have to add here is that it does not seem like this is directly comparable to “Separate but Equal” but equal. The difference being that whites and blacks are fundamentally the same, whereas males and females have fundamental differences. And interactions between males and females are inherently different than between those of the same gender - not that they will be so in all cases, but there are elements of difference. By contrast, interactions between people of different races are inherently the same as between those of the same race - to the extent that they are different it is not a difference that should be encouraged. I’m not as sure about the benefits of single gender education. I belive I’ve seen studies that show that there are benefits - particularly for girls. Too lazy to look them up right now, but maybe I will if no one beats me to it. I also think the arguments of the NEA about promoting stereotypes and leaving students unprepared for the real world don’t have more than a tiny kernel of truth in them - I would not consider them a factor at all. ---
**Author:** ![Logical\_Phallacy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Logical\_Phallacy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Logical_Phallacy)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2002, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-sex-classrooms/128192/2 "2002-09-13T04:02:46Z")
black and white people are fundamentally different. genetically, sociologically & emotionally. I see no difference. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2002, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-sex-classrooms/128192/3 "2002-09-13T07:02:42Z")
I went to a single-sex high school, and let me tell you what a relief it was. So much of the social heierarchy B.S., the who’s got the right clothes and hair B.S., and the general hormonal B.S., was blessedly absent. We actually got around to the business of learning. There was plenty of time after school and on weekends for the opposite sex. ---
**Author:** ![RexDart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b77776/32.png) [@RexDart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RexDart)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2002, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-sex-classrooms/128192/4 "2002-09-13T07:24:41Z")
I’m gonna go off and just say what I think here… Sex is irrational. Sexual attration is irrational. It is a destructive force. It is the scourge of men that we spend so much time fixated on this goal in our younger years. We can eventually suppress it, but during our formative years it constitutes a strong barrier to the rational pursuits of our true interests. As such, I most wholeheartedly endorse single-sex classrooms/schools. They encourage the independent growth of peoples, apart from the hormone-charged pseudosociety of public high schools. If social interaction must amount to merely a pissing contest, let it be a contest in which the smartest man pisses furthest, as opposed to the man gifted with the best tools for manipulation of the opposite sex. Regrettably, such segregation could do nothing for the 10% of us males who are attracted to other men. Still, doing something beneficial for 90% of a particular group must count for something, and leaving the situation as-is isn’t doing anyone any good. ---
**Author:** ![kitarak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kitarak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kitarak)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2002, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-sex-classrooms/128192/5 "2002-09-13T11:58:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Walloon \* > \*\*I went to a single-sex high school, and let me tell you what a relief it was. So much of the social heierarchy B.S., the who’s got the right clothes and hair B.S., and the general hormonal B.S., was blessedly absent. We actually got around to the business of learning. There was plenty of time after school and on weekends for the opposite sex. \*\* Really? That’s interesting. I went to a school that was single sex up until sixth form (the last two years of high school). I joined at the start of sixth form, and I was appalled by the lower school. They were generally bratty, uninterested in learning and more sex obsessed (usually in the form of porn) than those at my previous school (which was itself pretty bad but was coed). I think it depends entirely on which school you go to, which means it’s a fairly obvious statement: There are good and bad single-sex schools, there are good and bad co-ed schools. Personally I’m hugely against the idea of single sex schools - It’s even less representative of real life than a normal school is. However, I think if people want to have a single sex school they should be allowed to. For that matter I wouldn’t object to an all-white school either. I would have complete contempt for the school itself and the people who choose to go there, but I would support their right to create one. ---
**Author:** ![kitarak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kitarak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kitarak)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2002, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-sex-classrooms/128192/6 "2002-09-13T12:02:04Z")
Just to clarify, the ‘complete contempt’ remark was for people who went to an all-white school, not a single sex school. ---
**Author:** ![Algernon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a183cd/32.png) [@Algernon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algernon)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2002, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-sex-classrooms/128192/7 "2002-09-13T17:35:50Z")
Here are a couple of recent threads on this topic. [Single Sex Education?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=114171) [Same Sex Classrooms?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=114188) ---
**Author:** ![kniz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@kniz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kniz)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2002, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-sex-classrooms/128192/8 "2002-09-14T18:49:03Z")
> [@](#): > > But Nancy Zirkin, spokeswoman for the American Association of > University Women, said her group opposes the change because “separate is never equal.” “We would never accept this in a race context. Why in the world are we doing this in a gender context?” Zirkin said. There are women’s colleges and black colleges with no counterparts, so what is she talking about? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2002, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-sex-classrooms/128192/9 "2002-09-14T19:25:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Walloon \* > \*\*I went to a single-sex high school, and let me tell you what a relief it was. So much of the social heierarchy B.S., the who’s got the right clothes and hair B.S., and the general hormonal B.S., was blessedly absent. We actually got around to the business of learning. There was plenty of time after school and on weekends for the opposite sex. \*\* My one year in a single sex middle/high school was exactly the opposite. The heirarchy/best clothes/best hair/best car/best boyfriend/etc. was worse there than it was at any other time of my school career. Heaven help the girls (because the school administrators certainly wouldn’t) who didn’t conform to the rigid fashion, music, style dictates of their peers. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2002, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-sex-classrooms/128192/10 "2002-09-14T22:43:01Z")
Well, **amarinth** , I guess that’s a difference between boys and girls. I didn’t want to be unkind in my previous post, but as I recall from grade school, the girls were the one who ruled the social heirarchies and the appearance police. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2002, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-sex-classrooms/128192/11 "2002-09-15T00:39:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kniz \* > \*\* > There are women’s colleges and black colleges with no counterparts, so what is she talking about? 😕 \*\* What are _you_ talking about? There are schools that are traditionally African-American, but they are not “black colleges” in the sense of refusing admission to other ethnic groups. In fact, non-black students have been granted minority scholarships at these schools. Most women’s colleges no longer have male counterparts in the traditional sense (many were founded as “sister schools” to all-male colleges that have long sense gone co-ed), but there are still a few men’s colleges left in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2002, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-sex-classrooms/128192/12 "2002-09-15T00:45:15Z")
On your thumbs you can count the remaining men’s four-year colleges in the United States not associated with a women’s college: **Wabash College** , Crawfordsville, Indiana. **Hampden-Sydney College** , Virginia. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2002, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-sex-classrooms/128192/13 "2002-09-15T00:59:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Walloon \* > \*\*On your thumbs you can count the remaining men’s four-year colleges in the United States not associated with a women’s college: > > **Wabash College** , Crawfordsville, Indiana. > **Hampden-Sydney College** , Virginia. \*\* [Last time this subject came up](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=123298&highlight=HampdenSydney), you said those were the only two “secular, four-year, all-male colleges unaffiliated with a female college”. And now just two months later they’re suddenly the only men’s colleges _at all_ not associated with a women’s college. If you’re going to keep trotting out the same fact (which I note is not even particularly relevant here, as the subject has more to do with men’s colleges that _are_ affiliated with women’s colleges), you could at least try to be consistent in your claims. ---
**Author:** ![Sterra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Sterra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterra)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2002, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-sex-classrooms/128192/14 "2002-09-15T01:06:32Z")
> [@](#): > > The only thing I have to add here is that it does not seem like this is directly comparable to “Separate but Equal” but equal. The difference being that whites and blacks are fundamentally the same, whereas males and females have fundamental differences. Fundamental differences maybe, but fundamental differences that have some effect on learning? I’d say no. Our current problems with schools are because of the schools and superficial changes like single sex classrooms would only hurt schools already limited resources. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2002, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-sex-classrooms/128192/15 "2002-09-15T05:32:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lamia \* > \*\*Last time this subject came up, you said those were the only two “secular, four-year, all-male colleges unaffiliated with a female college”. And now just two months later they’re suddenly the only men’s colleges _at all_ not associated with a women’s college. \*\* I’ve read your statement numerous times now, and I’m at a loss to understand what the distinction you are making is. Because one statement has “secular” and the other doesn’t? In this case, it doesn’t make a difference. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2002, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-sex-classrooms/128192/16 "2002-09-15T14:21:05Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Walloon \* \*\* I’ve read your statement numerous times now, and I’m at a loss to understand what the distinction you are making is. Because one statement has “secular” and the other doesn’t? [QUOTE] \*\* That and “four-year”. > [@](#): > > \*\* > In this case, it doesn’t make a difference. \*\* Well, it’s obvious that it makes no difference _to you_ that you are misleadingly treating two distinct claims as the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Gaijin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/838e76/32.png) [@Gaijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaijin)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2002, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-sex-classrooms/128192/17 "2002-09-15T14:47:30Z")
[This source](http://www.worldandi.com/public/2002/august/mtpub.html) strongly suggests that single-sex classrooms are very beneficial to education. > [@](#): > > Their analysis, which was based on six years of study of over 270,000 students, in fifty-three academic subjects, demonstrated that both boys and girls who were educated in single-sex classrooms scored on average 15 to 22 percentile ranks higher than did boys and girls in coeducational settings. And as for social pressures, etc… > [@](#): > > Heaven help the girls (because the school administrators certainly wouldn’t) who didn’t conform to the rigid fashion, music, style dictates of their peers. In my experience, this is the case at every high school, regardless of whether the classrooms are single-sex or co-ed. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2002, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-sex-classrooms/128192/18 "2002-09-15T16:19:26Z")
\*\* Lamia\*\*, I still don’t know what has gotten you into such a hissy. I said “four-year” both times. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2002, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-sex-classrooms/128192/19 "2002-09-15T20:40:01Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Walloon \* > \*\*\*\* Lamia_\*, I still don’t know what has gotten you into such a hissy. > \*\* Gosh, it must be my uterus acting up again. > [@](#): > > \*\* > I said “four-year” both times. \*\* You are correct, I was mistaken when I said that you had not. However, dropping the word “secular” is in and of itself still a big change in your claim. There are several non-secular men’s colleges in the US. Claiming that the secular ones are the only ones that there are is not the sort of thing you should expect to get away with in GD. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2002, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-sex-classrooms/128192/20 "2002-09-16T03:00:19Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Lamia \* > \*\* There are several non-secular men’s colleges in the US._\* Ok, can you name any _non_-secular men’s four-year colleges in the United States that are not affiliated with a women’s college? I can’t. [cue]_ **Jeopardy!** think music_[/cue] [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/single-sex-classrooms/128192.md?page=2)