# Sir Roger Bannister has died at 88. **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [March 4, 2018, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sir-roger-bannister-has-died-at-88/810015 "2018-03-04T17:35:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2018, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sir-roger-bannister-has-died-at-88/810015/21 "2018-03-05T00:54:36Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > It’s no longer 26 miles, 385 yards? No, it’s 42,195 meters. 😃 No one ever refers to the race as anything other than “a marathon”. People say “I ran a 5K, I ran a 10K, I ran a marathon”. ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2018, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sir-roger-bannister-has-died-at-88/810015/22 "2018-03-05T01:55:10Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Which is why it’s not recognized as a record. True, but don’t discount the pre-requisite for the runner to be an amateur. Between the Wars very handy athletes like the Frenchman Ladoumègue and the Finn Paavo Nurmi has world record attempts at the mile on Olympic standard tracks disqualified because officials deemed they were in violation of the amateur code. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2018, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sir-roger-bannister-has-died-at-88/810015/23 "2018-03-05T02:10:43Z")
> [@penultima\_thule](#): > > \*\*True, but don’t discount the pre-requisite for the runner to be an amateur. > \*\* > Between the Wars very handy athletes like the Frenchman Ladoumègue and the Finn Paavo Nurmi has world record attempts at the mile on Olympic standard tracks disqualified because officials deemed they were in violation of the amateur code. Which has nothing to do with whether or not he did it. You’ve brought up this story before yet despite the claim he ran sub 4, you never stated the time he ran. I found several stories, all making the claim yet only that gave a time-four flat. None gave any indication of how accurately the course was measured, nor the terrain or elevation change. Nothing how the starting signal was transmitted to the finish or if the timepiece was transported to the finish ahead of the runner. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2018, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sir-roger-bannister-has-died-at-88/810015/24 "2018-03-05T03:01:33Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > [More at Quora](https://www.quora.com/Why-is-there-a-1500m-race-in-the-Olympics-instead-of-a-1600m-considering-there-is-a-100m-200m-400m-and-800m-1600m-is-also-a-%E2%80%9Ccleaner%E2%80%9D-4-laps-around-the-track-instead-of-3-3-4-What%E2%80%99s-the-origin-of-this) > > > [@](#): > > > > The origin of the 1500m distance as an international standard seems to be a mixture of a couple factors: > > > > If you’re using the mile as the measuring stick, 1500m seems screwy, but if you think more metrically, 1500m = 1.5k, which is actually a nice round number. Once you get over 1k, measuring things in terms of whole or half-kilometers makes more sense than continuing with multiples of 400m. Until you get up to 1k, 100m is the base unit – continuing to double the distance gets you the 100-200-400-800m events we know and love. > > Apparently, back in the day (1800s) the French favored a 500m track instead of the track lengths used by the screwy imperial-system-favoring Brits and Americans. Again, if you think in terms of km instead of miles, a .5k track makes a lot of sense. Anyway, the French played a large role in establishing the first modern Olympics (Pierre de Coubertin was a major instigator of the first Games) and some suspect that the 1500m distance was because of their preferences. The “track” (really more of a suggestion than a track – it was kind of a loosely-bounded field) used in the Paris 1900 Games was 500m long. But they still ran the 100-200-400-800m events in addition to the 1500m and longer events. The Sydney games almost had a [94m](https://youtu.be/j5TewuwFkUo?t=2m10s) event. (Warning: fiction) ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2018, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sir-roger-bannister-has-died-at-88/810015/25 "2018-03-05T12:41:45Z")
> [@mixdenny](#): > > The mile is THE MILE. One Thousand Paces of Caesar’s stride for God’s sake. Really? Caesar’s stride was 5.28 feet? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2018, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sir-roger-bannister-has-died-at-88/810015/26 "2018-03-05T12:52:13Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Really? Caesar’s stride was 5.28 feet? The [Roman pace](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pace_(unit)) is two steps. > [@](#): > > The Roman pace (Latin: passus) was a Roman unit of length. It was notionally the distance of a full stride from the position of one heel where it raised off of the ground to where it set down again at the end of the step: two steps, one by each foot. > Under Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa, it was standardized as the distance of two steps (gradūs) or five Roman feet (pedes), about 1.48 meters or 4 feet 10 inches. There were 1000 paces in the Roman mile, which was named after that distance as the mille passus or passuum. ---
**Author:** ![penultima\_thule](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penultima_thule/32/3833_2.png) [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2018, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sir-roger-bannister-has-died-at-88/810015/27 "2018-03-05T13:02:55Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > You’ve brought up this story before yet despite the claim he ran sub 4, you never stated the time he ran. I found several stories, all making the claim yet only that gave a time-four flat. Yep, even included the [cite](https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2004/may/02/athletics.comment1). I don’t see that Peter Radford (btw 100m bronze medalist in Rome) would have an axe favouring athletes or earlier centuries though his citation when inducted into the England Athletics Hall of Fame in 2016 includes “He is acknowledged as THE expert on 18th century athletics” (their capitalisation), whatever that’s worth. Radford’s point is that the race was a wager and so all parties had vested interests to agree that the measurement of distance and time were right. The actual time is not known. But he collected his wager on the basis he ran the mile inside four minutes, whether by 1 second or more. Those who had their hard earned against him paid up. > [@](#): > > None gave any indication of how accurately the course was measured, nor the terrain or elevation change. Nothing how the starting signal was transmitted to the finish or if the timepiece was transported to the finish ahead of the runner. The course was along the paved streets from Goswell Road then along Old Road, Shoreditch until it’s end at Hackney Road. After the RH turn the course along Old St is essentially straight, and inclined down. It’s not an Olympic course. As to the timing method, an interesting thing is that on the corner of Old and Hackney Roads is [St Leonard’s Church](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Leonard%27s,_Shoreditch) built in 1740. The nursery rhyme “Oranges and Lemons” about the sounds of London bells peels includes the Church of Shoreditch being rendered as “when I grow rich”. So taking poetic licence Parrott could have started on Goswell when the bells of Shoreditch struck and the timing could be already at the finishing line. I don’t know whether the bit over 4 seconds the sound would have taken from St Leonards to reach Goswell Road was allowed for. The article also cites in 1787 a professional runner named Powell ran a mile in 4 minutes and 3 seconds at Moulsey Hurst (which was an established cricket ground, so may have been on a circular track) in preparation for an attempt on the 4-minute mile where he’d backed himself at 1,000 guineas on achieving it (£780,000 in 2004 values). For staking the equivalent of about 1mil USD you’d reckon he’d have to be pretty confident. A third cite is in 1796 that a runner named Weller, also wagered that he could run the mile in four minutes and won the race in three minutes 58 seconds. I think he makes a sound case. Further; had Roger Bannister run the same course through Shoreditch with Chris Brasher and Chris Chitaway as pacers and windbreaks he’d have done it a whole lot better than 3:59.4 An interesting to side note to Banister’s record set at Oxford; the timekeeper was Harold Abrahams (100m gold medalist in Paris 1924 and Chariots of Fire fame) ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2018, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sir-roger-bannister-has-died-at-88/810015/28 "2018-03-05T13:11:30Z")
> [@penultima\_thule](#): > > Yep, even included the [cite](https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2004/may/02/athletics.comment1). > I don’t see that Peter Radford (btw 100m bronze medalist in Rome) would have an axe favouring athletes or earlier centuries though his citation when inducted into the England Athletics Hall of Fame in 2016 includes “He is acknowledged as THE expert on 18th century athletics” (their capitalisation), whatever that’s worth. > > Radford’s point is that the race was a wager and so all parties had vested interests to agree that the measurement of distance and time were right. > The actual time is not known. But he collected his wager on the basis he ran the mile inside four minutes, whether by 1 second or more. Those who had their hard earned against him paid up. > The course was along the paved streets from Goswell Road then along Old Road, Shoreditch until it’s end at Hackney Road. After the RH turn the course along Old St is essentially straight, **and inclined down.** It’s not an Olympic course. > > As to the timing method, an interesting thing is that on the corner of Old and Hackney Roads is [St Leonard’s Church](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Leonard%27s,_Shoreditch) built in 1740. The nursery rhyme “Oranges and Lemons” about the sounds of London bells peels includes the Church of Shoreditch being rendered as “when I grow rich”. So taking poetic licence Parrott could have started on Goswell when the bells of Shoreditch struck and the timing could be already at the finishing line. I don’t know whether the bit over 4 seconds the sound would have taken from St Leonards to reach Goswell Road was allowed for. > > The article also cites in 1787 a professional runner named Powell ran a mile in 4 minutes and 3 seconds at Moulsey Hurst (which was an established cricket ground, so may have been on a circular track) in preparation for an attempt on the 4-minute mile where he’d backed himself at 1,000 guineas on achieving it (£780,000 in 2004 values). For staking the equivalent of about 1mil USD you’d reckon he’d have to be pretty confident. > > A third cite is in 1796 that a runner named Weller, also wagered that he could run the mile in four minutes and won the race in three minutes 58 seconds. > > I think he makes a sound case. > Further; had Roger Bannister run the same course through Shoreditch with Chris Brasher and Chris Chitaway as pacers and windbreaks he’d have done it a whole lot better than 3:59.4 > > An interesting to side note to Banister’s record set at Oxford; the timekeeper was Harold Abrahams (100m gold medalist in Paris 1924 and Chariots of Fire fame) Which is another reason it’s not a record. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2018, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sir-roger-bannister-has-died-at-88/810015/29 "2018-03-05T19:21:34Z")
The announcement of his achievement has to be one of the best examples of building drama in sports history. > [@](#): > > The stadium announcer for the race was Norris McWhirter, who went on to co-publish and co-edit the Guinness Book of Records.[13] He excited the crowd by delaying the announcement of the time Bannister ran as long as possible:[14] > Ladies and gentlemen, here is the result of event nine, the one mile: first, number forty one, R. G. Bannister, Amateur Athletic Association and formerly of Exeter and Merton Colleges, Oxford, with a time which is a new meeting and track record, and which—subject to ratification—will be a new English Native, British National, All-Comers, European, British Empire and World Record. The time was three… No one heard the rest of it. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sir-roger-bannister-has-died-at-88/810015.md?page=1)