# Sistani removes Fatwa on Gays **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 16, 2006, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sistani-removes-fatwa-on-gays/356911 "2006-05-16T01:27:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sistani-removes-fatwa-on-gays/356911/1 "2006-05-16T01:27:23Z")
Moral victory for gays in Iraq, who’ve suffered horrendous violence from the hands of bigoted and backward ass militamen, such as the Sadr and Badr brigades. It seems Sistani was put in action when a group called LGBT pleaded with him to do something about it. > [@](#): > > Rights campaigners were claiming a moral victory after Iraq’s Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani appeared to renounce a fatwa calling for the killing of homosexuals “in the most severe way”. > > The decision by Iraq’s most prominent Shia leader to remove the call for the killing of gays from his website came after a spate of attacks against homosexuals, including the murder of a 14-year-old boy revealed last week in The Independent. Ahmed Khalil was shot at point-blank range after being accosted by men in police uniforms, according to his neighbours in the al-Dura area of Baghdad. > > Campaign groups had warned of a surge in homophobic killings by state security services and religious militias following the anti-gay and anti-lesbian fatwa issued by Ayatollah Sistani. > The killing of Ahmed is one of a series of alleged homophobic murders. There is mounting evidence that fundamentalists have infiltrated government security forces to commit homophobic murders while wearing police uniforms. > > Rights groups are concerned that the Sadr and Badr militias, both Shia, have stepped up attacks on gays after a string of religious rulings, since the US-led invasion, calling for their eradication. > > The apparent about-turn from the religious leader came after two weeks of talks with the London office of the Iraqi gay and lesbian organisation LGBT, a clandestine network with members in many Iraqi towns. [http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle\_east/article485024.ece](http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article485024.ece) ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sistani-removes-fatwa-on-gays/356911/2 "2006-05-16T01:44:14Z")
“Stop stabbing me.” “Ok.” “Gosh, you’re really swell.” Not. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sistani-removes-fatwa-on-gays/356911/3 "2006-05-16T01:51:38Z")
[QUOTE=levdrakon] “Stop stabbing me.” “Ok.” “Gosh, you’re really swell.” Not. [/QUOTE] Considering the guy didn’t have to even acknowledge the killings and continue his fatwa, I regard this as a step forward. And considering Iraqi is a very conservative society, it’s even more surprising he removed it. That’s what I’m highlighting, but then again, don’t let that get in the way of your sarcastic comments. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Clam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3bc359/32.png) [@Happy\_Clam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Clam)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sistani-removes-fatwa-on-gays/356911/4 "2006-05-16T08:35:09Z")
I think the sarcastic comment was legitimate- but, then again, so is the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sistani-removes-fatwa-on-gays/356911/5 "2006-05-16T11:29:11Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > And considering Iraqi is a very conservative society, it’s even more surprising he removed it. I agree it’s a very good thing that the _fatwa_ is lifted, but I’m not sure that this is really groundbreaking in Iraqi society. AFAICT, the current violence against gays you ascribe to Iraqi “conservatism” is more a consequence of the instability and rise of theocratic elements since the invasion. An [April BBC report](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4915172.stm) suggests that conditions for gays have got much worse in the past few years than they were under the oppressive but secularist dictatorship of Saddam: > [@](#): > > [Iraqi homosexuals] say that since the US-led invasion, gay people are being killed because of their sexual orientation. > > They blame the increase in violence on the growing influence of religious figures and militia groups in Iraq since Saddam Hussein was ousted. > > Islam considers homosexuality sinful. A website published in the Iranian city of Qom in the name of Ayatollah Sistani, Iraq’s most revered Shia cleric, says: “Those who commit sodomy must be killed in the harshest way”. […] > > But [interviewees] Hussein, Ahmed and gay activists outside Iraq say there is clear evidence that the situation has deteriorated dramatically for Iraqi homosexuals. > > “Saddam was a tyrant, but at least we had more freedom then,” said Hussein. “Nowadays, gay men are just killed for no reason.” I hope that Sistani’s concession is a promising sign that Iraqi theocratic elements are toning down the harshness of their extremism and considering a return to the somewhat more tolerant and secular society that Iraqis have been used to. But they’ve still got a long way to go. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sistani-removes-fatwa-on-gays/356911/6 "2006-05-16T16:02:42Z")
[QUOTE=Ryan\_Liam] Considering the guy didn’t have to even acknowledge the killings and continue his fatwa, I regard this as a step forward. And considering Iraqi is a very conservative society, it’s even more surprising he removed it. That’s what I’m highlighting, but then again, don’t let that get in the way of your sarcastic comments. :rolleyes: [/QUOTE] Sorry for the sarcasm, but that’s basically how I feel about it. You don’t get a cookie from me just because you’ve stopped persecuting & killing. Also, there was no debate proposed in the OP. Unless one quickly develops, I assume this thread will be moved to IMHO or MPSIMS. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sistani-removes-fatwa-on-gays/356911/7 "2006-05-16T16:11:35Z")
[QUOTE=levdrakon] Sorry for the sarcasm, but that’s basically how I feel about it. You don’t get a cookie from me just because you’ve stopped persecuting & killing. Also, there was no debate proposed in the OP. Unless one quickly develops, I assume this thread will be moved to IMHO or MPSIMS. [/QUOTE] Well the debate is how much influence will this have on Shias in general, and will it lead to a drop in the amount of persecution which results in murder of Gays in Iraq? It also leads me to believe how receptive is the Shia clergy open to change. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sistani-removes-fatwa-on-gays/356911/8 "2006-05-16T16:27:42Z")
[QUOTE=Ryan\_Liam] Well the debate is how much influence will this have on Shias in general, and will it lead to a drop in the amount of persecution which results in murder of Gays in Iraq? It also leads me to believe how receptive is the Shia clergy open to change. [/QUOTE] If there’s one thing I’ve learned in my humble little time on Earth, is that no matter how devoutly religious someone is, they still freely pick & choose which rules to follow. Take Catholics for instance. The bible strictly forbids adultery, yet Catholics will go out & do it all the time. But when the subject of Gays comes up, they start shouting, “it says so in the bible! I believe the bible!” Other than that, I probably won’t participate in this if it becomes a great debate, because I’m not researched enough about Islam. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sistani-removes-fatwa-on-gays/356911/9 "2006-05-16T17:34:04Z")
> [@](#): > > If there’s one thing I’ve learned in my humble little time on Earth, is that no matter how devoutly religious someone is, they still freely pick & choose which rules to follow. Take Catholics for instance. The bible strictly forbids adultery, yet Catholics will go out & do it all the time. But when the subject of Gays comes up, they start shouting, “it says so in the bible! I believe the bible!” So what? Many Catholics around the world don’t execute Gays. If Sistanis removal of the Fatwa can help people stop getting killed, then it’s a step in the right direction. I’m surprised it didn’t happen sooner, considering transexuals and cross dressers in Iran are officially tolerated. ---
**Author:** ![Reloy3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c68b51/32.png) [@Reloy3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reloy3)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sistani-removes-fatwa-on-gays/356911/10 "2006-05-16T17:47:49Z")
I’m confused by the article. Was the fatwa rescinded, or just removed from the website. Did Sistani actually come out and announce an end to the fatwa? It would make a difference to me. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2006, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sistani-removes-fatwa-on-gays/356911/11 "2006-05-16T18:07:43Z")
[QUOTE=Reloy3] I’m confused by the article. Was the fatwa rescinded, or just removed from the website. Did Sistani actually come out and announce an end to the fatwa? It would make a difference to me. [/QUOTE] More to the point, did Sistani actually issue the original _fatwa_? Only the cleric who issued a _fatwa_ can rescind it. If Sistani issued an anti-gay _fatwa_, to begin with, then that was really bad, but then its removal is a possibly good sign: it will be an excellent matter if he has revoked his own _fatwa_; it will be a hopeful but troubling sign if he has simply stopped publicizing, but has failed to lift, a _fatwa_ he issued.. If Sistani simply had an ancient (and thus, irrevocable) _fatwa_ removed from the web site, then he is doing as much as he is permitted under the rules of Islam, which is, again, a good sign.