Six Feet Under 7/31

Cafe Society
21

I’ll be disappointed in the writers if anyone else dies or if Maggie is pregnant.
Reactions to Nate’s death will supply more than enough drama for the final episodes.

I don’t like what the writers have done (or not done) with Ruth. I like quirky characters as much as anyone, but Ruth is just pitiful. Ruth has been written as silly, ineffectual, self-centered and needy. She doesn’t know herself or her family any better than she did at the beginning.

The other characters have shown some growth or at least change. Not Ruth. She’s the same woman who tossed the roast on the floor when Nate Sr. died. That’s disappointing to me.

Do you see her that way, or is it just me? Maybe it’s because I’m Ruth’s age, and I’m being over-sensitive.

I don’t see that Ruth has made any impact on the show, or on her family, except as occasional pathetic/comic relief? Or is that how we’re supposed to look at widowed mothers of adult children? Peripheral and unimportant?

22

I agree completely about Ruth. I am annoyed by her most of the time. I’m about the same age as Ruth, and I stopped being a self-pitying, self-destructive ninny a long time ago (with occasional relapses). I love Frances Conroy (maybe because I look a lot like her), but Ruth pisses me off.

23

Nate is an absolute dick! Jiminy Christmas! If Rachael Griffiths married me… But no. He cheats on her like the self-indulgent idiot he is, then dumps her on his death bed. Well, at least he’s out of his misery.

24

I kept wondering what the significance of Nate’s twice beating a creature to death during recreational gatherings and now I’m starting to think that the moral of this show is that if something is annoying enough, it’s okay if it dies.

I had high hopes for Ruth’s character too. Ruth kind of jumped the shark for me when she was nuzzling with the intern. He wasn’t even a real character. On the other hand, I don’t like to be too hard on Ruth. She didn’t even know what co-dependent meant when the show started and then she found out what it was and is trying to stop being it. She was a bitch to George because she went too far to try to protect herself but that’s normal. In the end, she was right. He found someone new to take care of his loony ass right away and just replaced her. George was a player. He knew he was sick and when he saw she wasn’t going to play he repeated his game on someone else. She also learned to stand up to Claire which she had never done before, she never stood up to her kids.

It’s hard because you only see the new Ruth and don’t see the old Ruth that kept quiet all those years. She’s a late bloomer so she seems like a teenager sometimes but I’m not sure, I think it’s still growth. It’s true her whole family and all her boyfriends just laugh at her but I never really laugh at her. They want her to be that quiet mom who has no identity of her own and they don’t respect her so it makes her seem foolish. The more I think about her the more I like her because she is never afraid to look like an idiot to speak up on her own behalf, even though she knows she’s shouting at the wall. I wouldn’t really like to see her suddenly blossom into a figure of respect who always gets things right because being true to yourself in real life is usually more like it is for Ruth than it would be for a character on Malcolm in the Middle. You win some and you lose some. The only way that character could really come in to her own would be if her fucking kids moved out. Come to think of it, I think that’s why David’s the only good character because he’s the only one who has his own grown up place.

25

I agree with pokey that Ruth has grown. She is the middle-aged version of Claire, that was the obvious theme of this season. Having gotten a late start due to her early marriage to Nate Sr., she is going through a lot of what Claire is going through, in her own context. I think she’s come a long way, and it’s much harder to go through all that at Ruth’s age than it is at Claire’s. Maybe that’s the big advantage we have over our mothers-- we get to have our mid-life crises in our 20s instead of in our 50s or 60s. I think the juxtaposition of the two characters has been fascinating throughout the run of the show, and I am interested to see how they tie it up.

Oh, I’m not finding it much of a stretch at all.

26

Oh, man. . . I’m Ruth’s age, too, and I totally understand “peripheral and unimportant.” Ruth has spent her entire life subordinate to her husband and her children. Her husband died. Her children don’t need her. She’s been floundering trying to find out who she is and what she should be doing with her life. I really thought her imaginary shooting of all the men in her life was important. She now realizes she can’t measure herself by the men around her. She’s not where she’s supposed to be yet in terms of understanding herself and her future. But life is like that. And I don’t think she’s going to get everything wrapped up in a nice little package in the remaining episodes. I would be disappointed if she did.

27

Seems strange to me that with so many free thinkers chiming in about this show (this episode in particular) that so few seem to be able to interpret Nate’s final conversation with Brenda as anything but a breakup in the literal sense. Why do so many viewers continue to take a show as introspective as SFU at face value? These kinds of fans have delighted in taking the show to task over trivialities predominantly related to why a particular character has done or said something that didn’t jive with that person’s expectation of what that character should have done. “I hate so-and-so for this-and-that reason, why did they have to go and do that when they should have done this instead” seems to make up the majority of said comments, and I find it sad that this seems to be the limit of what so many people take away from this show week after week. Why do so many focus on what they feel a character should or shouldn’t have done instead of letting the story unfold? I trust that the show’s writers will end this story with some redemption of whatever faith may have been lost in the characters that have suffered and/or become less likeable. Perhaps this is what makes them interesting to watch? Perhaps if they always acted predictably from one week to the next, the show would not have a fraction of the magnetism that it does? Perhaps, even as this show has swung into the realm of more mainstream drama in the last two seasons, the elements of what makes it more than just a typical clichéd drama are still there, and still frequently overlooked?

Yes, Nate’s behavior this season has been self-centered, but this final chapter of Nate’s life was meant to stand that on its head, having him reflecting on his relationships, accepting the outcomes, and saying goodbye. If more people would try to accept Nate the way he’s meant to be understood as a fictional character instead of imposing their expectations about what he should be morally as a human being, then perhaps they’d be able to dig the wax out of their ears and remove their horse blinders long enough to fully understand what is commonly referred to in literary circles as a character arc. Every main character on this show has been guilty of infidelity at some point in the series (some on more than one occasion), but forget them, let’s all hop on the ‘HateNate’ bandwagon and condemn his selfishness and narcissism, right? Meanwhile, we’ll shower Ruth, David, Keith, et. al. with heaps of praise … all cheaters in their own right who had affairs which jeopordized relationships that were healthy and stable in comparison to Nate and Brenda’s rocky marriage. His final conversation with Brenda was not a breakup. It was acknowledgement and acceptance of his fate, and his goodbye to her … he did not make his coming-to-terms with his own mortality blatantly obvious to the her anymore than he did to the rest of the characters, and apparently the writers didn’t make make this abundantly clear for the majority of viewers watching the show, either. He never spoke of an intent to leave Brenda for Maggie (or anyone else) in the form of a breakup, divorce or otherwise. Seriously, where are all you people coming up with this shit and how can you all be so stupid? He never broke up with her. He knew, underneath the peaceful, sedated smile (read: narcissistic, selfish smirk for those with the allegorical blinders on) that his time was short-lived. If you are able to read an expression and look into someone’s eyes, then you’d be able to tell from his resignment that he knew this was the end of his life. I guess this should’ve been spoonfed to audiences with something along the lines of “Brenda, I’m so sorry, but I’m going to die at the end of this episode” so that they wouldn’t confuse it with “Brenda, I want a divorce”.

As has often been the case with stories Alan Ball has been creatively involved in, it’s almost always a matter of (to quote the tagline of American Beauty) “looking closer” …

28

let’s not forget that Nate has had a growing AVM in his left hemisphere (that magically only caused a one-second transient loss of language when it burst)… his behavior may be explained, in part, by the effects of a mass in his left frontal lobe, causing decreased reasoning and increased impulsivity.

Not an M.D., but I play one when I watch TV…

29

Yikes. We are discussing different viewpoints regarding a fictional character, aren’t we? Is there only one correct way to see this?

30

I agree it seems like anamnesis was being somewhat harsh on fellow dopers, but here’s my two cents…

As I read thru this thread I thought about agreeing with everyone about what a jerk Nate ended up being, and that this isn’t like your standard dramas, where things get nicely resolved during a character’s dying breath. I was going to say that Nate breaking up with Brenda and turning his back on the marriage/pregnancy was a kick in the head to us viewers to remind us that sometimes people don’t resolve things nicely, that sometimes they actively choose to be jerks, and that dramatic shows don’t have to follow our expectations.

But then I read anamnesis ’ post above, and was once again kicked in the head. I get it now. Of course he wasn’t “breaking up” with her. Maybe the writers intentionally wanted to let Brenda and us believe that for now, and will reveal the truth eventually to those of us who have allegorical blinders on. (And btw, I think Brenda has taken the “divorce” interpretation of their conversation).

So I’d like to give a “bravo” to that insightful post by anamnesis.

This is such an awesome series.

31

I’ll never “bravo” someone for calling us all stupid. I think the same point could have been made without such unnecessary nastiness, and in fact, would have gotten a better reception.

I understand anamnesis’s point about the Nate/Brenda convo, but I still think he was breaking up with her. Not necessarily for Maggie, but he was severing ties with her in a way that indicated that they did not belong together. In fact, if he knew he was going to die, the conversation seems even worse, though I don’t think that’s what happened. There are too many textual indications that it was, indeed, a break-up convo and that he thought he and Brenda would speak again (WRT Maya, specifically). He says he’s not going to try anymore, that he and Brenda are just “too different.” Classic break up line if there ever was one. Please explain to me how that would relate to him dying. Add that to the fact that, in his coma-dream, he DID break up with her (I think Nate’s coma-dreams were what would have happened had his AVM not ruptured), and that’s my opinion.

I used to love Nate. In Season One, I thought he was the perfect man, honestly. He has fallen very far, whereas I’ve seen the other characters progress and grow towards bettering themselves. As for heaping praise on the other characters, please realize that none of them broke up with their pregnant partners, after cheating, on their death bed. It seems the epitome of the selfish act to leave Brenda at that moment, the worst possible moment whether he died or not. I also specifically stated that my disappointment was with the writers, not with Nate, who isn’t a real person. No, I do not trust TV writers. *The X-Files * cured me of that for good.

Here’s my transcript of the final Nate/Brenda convo. Judge for yourself:

Brenda: I was waiting for you at the church last night when you and Maggie were… talking. I told you to go do what you want. I guess you did.

Nate: I’m sorry. I never wanted it to go this way.

Brenda: Listen, I’ve been up all night, thinking. You’re alive. That’s all that really matters. We’ve been through worse together, I guess, and we’ll get through this too.

Nate: I don’t think so.

Brenda: What?

Nate: Not together.

Brenda: Are you saying what I think you’re saying?

Nate: Yeah.

Brenda: Uh, what about Maya?

Nate: We’ll talk about that. That’s a future conversation.

Brenda: So that’s it? You’re done? We’re not even gonna try?

Nate: We’ve been trying. Both of us, for a long time. Since the beginning. We’re just different, that’s all.

Brenda: Yeah, you’re a narcissist. I don’t even think youre’ capable of committing to anybody or anything, even yourself.

Nate: I’m not gonna fight. I am so tired of fighting.

32

Well. anamnesis has spoken. I guess we can all go home now. :rolleyes:

33

**anamnesis[b/], you’re relatively new here, and you will notice that your comment has evoked somewhat antagonistic responses. You started it, but I (as Moderator) am ending it. Personal insults are NOT acceptable in this forum. You can say what you want about the work of art/entertainment, you can say what you want about the artists/entertainers, but you may NOT make personal insults directed at other posters. No, you didn’t mention anyone by name, but you’re insulting them nonetheless.

For any work of art/entertainment, there can be multiple ways of looking at it and multiple ways of discussing it. If there were only one approach and one interpretation, it wouldn’t be very interesting for very long. Other viewers are allowed to have other ways of looking at things; that doesn’t make them “stupid.”

This is Official Moderator speaking: no personal insults in this forum. If you are unsure of other forum rules, you might read Forum Rules - PLEASE READ

34

Ah yes, I see I’ve stirred up the bee’s nest. How uncommon. Must be because I’m “relatively new” here. You’ll have to forgive me for attempting to explain the real meaning of a scene from a television show which an overabundance of fans are clearly misunderstanding. I guess when my post count has a comma in it, I’ll be able to be say what I like without worry of being labelled as antagonistic?

Sure, when I say “you people” I’ll admit I may have painted the fanbase with too broad a stroke, and indeed it was in reference to far more than just the Doper fans of the show, but if so many are taking the conversation in question to signify Nate’s intention to separate from Brenda in a matrimonial context, then it’s my opinion they haven’t noticed in nearly five years that significant events on this show are always surrounded with metaphorical implications dressed up in diversionary dialogue. Heartfelt apologies. Didn’t mean to offend anyone with … my opinion. Hope we can all still be friends. Anyone want to join SFU Analysts Club? Vertizontal, Rubystreak, you’re welcome anytime. We’re still accepting members for a limited time while the show’s winding down. We have regional chapters all across the country. Meetings are once a week, with in-depth SFU analysis, scene by scene, character by character, word for word. No membership fees. Great food. Open bar. Fun times. Lotsa ladies, too. Feel free to contact me for your local chapter’s designated meeting place and time.

35

No. It’s not the post count commas that matter. Rather, it’s the ability to present an opinion without calling people who disagree with you “stupid.”

Be as antagonistic as you want. It’s rudeness that stirs up the “bees nest.”

36

You must get a great breeze up there on your high horse (and I’ll bet that helps in this heat), but you’re in a discussion about Six Feet Under.

Six Feet Under, remember the show that uses fantasies, daydreams, regular dreams and all sorts of crazy filters, music, zooms and pans to browbeat the audience over the head with the “This Is Important” stick.

Is that the show you’re talking about? Because we’re hear to discuss what we think about that show.

37

Although he didn’t present it in a nice way, anamnesis has a point. As I see it, Nate is not particularly selfish, and never has been. Why did he choose to stay in LA? Because his mother wanted him to. Why did he become a funeral director? Because he wanted to help people. Why did he marry Lisa? Because it was the “right thing to do.” Same with Brenda - he married her largely because she wanted it. For the past 5 years, Nate has been doing everything for other people. He’s not meant to settle down, it’s just not how he is. Whenever he tries to “escape,” God strikes him down. While in the dream/coma, Nate realizes what he must do to be happy. Brenda told him to do what he wants for once, and he does. Brenda, understandably, is hurt by his revelation, and calls him a narcassist. This is the final blow to Nate. He can’t win. He decides at this point, consciously or not, to give up. He’s tired of fighting. Fade to white.

38

This is just a guess, but you’ll be “relatively banned” here if you continue being this antagonistic and nasty in CS. I hope not. I hope you can just debate with us and not get your knickers all in a twist over… the interpretation of a TV show.

The “real meaning”? There’s only one? It’s not ambiguous, or maybe open to more than one opinion? See, that’s the thing about opinions-- there’s often more than one to be had on any given work of art, and none of them is “right.” I posted the transcript to illustrate why, textually, I think Nate was breaking up with Brenda. I still think so, and all your insults aren’t going to change my mind. They’re just going to make me think that you take this show way too seriously and need to relax, breathe, and decide if you want to have a discussion or a shouting match. If the latter, I’m not interested.

Hey thanks, but I don’t join clubs I’m invited to by people who think I’m stupid and obtuse. Sorry, I do appreciate the offer though. :wink:

39

We’re all stupid and obtuse in our own special ways. Look at me, I’m stupid, obtuse, antagonistic, insulting and belligerent … all in one night, and in one thread, too! I mean, clearly, even after my attempts at humor, someone still thinks I’ve got soapbox saddle on my Clydesdale. I must sit at least fifteen feet higher than everyone here.

But hey, I can admit to my faults. It’s not always easy, but with people always pointing them out to me, it’s a cakewalk.

40

He’s not very emotionally giving and never has been, except maybe to his daughter. Yes, he has done a lot for other people, but he has resented the hell out of them every step of the way. That doesn’t make him a bastard, it just makes him human, but not a saint either. In fact, all the Fishers have that problem of doing things for other people and then resenting those other people. David has come the furthest in getting past it, IMO.

Then he shouldn’t have unprotected sex with women he doesn’t want to have his babies. He also shouldn’t propose marriage to anyone, ever, but he has-- twice. Are we supposed to feel sorry for him because he deliberately makes bad decisions?

I don’t know. I subscribe to the POV expressed by Natalie Portman’s character in Closer: you make a decision to fall in love with someone. There’s a chance for you to walk away before things get sticky, and if you don’t, then it’s on you. When Nate told Maggie, “This wasn’t planned, you know,” that was a lie. He’d tried to lure her over to his house once before, when the wimmin were having Fiona’s wake. Coma-dream Brenda was exactly right; things got tough with them, so he was looking for a new illusion to stick his dick in. Maggie would prove problematic and imperfect too, and the cycle would continue because, as you said, Nate’s not the settling down type.

But hey, that’s just my opinion.