Six Feet Under: Man, am I glad THAT’s over

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
Well, working in a library, you soon realize that you cannot read everything. But I don’t see where you got that from. Why would I comment on a book I haven’t read? How could I?
[/QUOTE]
I was referring to this :

[QUOTE=lissener]
My second reason for watching it was, working in a video store, if I was going to not-recommend it to customers, I wanted to be able to say why. If it ended up all being worth it in the end, I wanted to know that.
[/QUOTE]

Which is, IMO, a pefectly reasonable comment.

Saying that you didn’t care for X, but that many people did, as did critics is NOT the same as not recommending something and giving reasons for it.

Customer: “Would you recommend 6FU? I’ve heard of it.”

Video Store Worker: “I didn’t really care for it, but it won some awards and it’s a popular item for rental. It’s about a family who owns a funeral home.”

OR

Customer:" Would you recommend 6FU? I’ve heard of it."

Video Store Worker: " What a horrible show. It’s all about the people in it burying their feelings six feet under. Get it? It’s unpleasant to watch. It’s message is ‘life sucks; kill yourself now.’ I wouldn’t piss on any of the characters if they were on fire. Will that be all or would you care for some microwave popcorn?"

There are still video stores?

For some reason, after reading the thread title, I keep picturing lissener as Alex in A Clockwork Orange.

[QUOTE=lissener]
Oh, I thought we were allowed to have our own opinions in this forum. From my POV, your attributing their success to anything else casts graver than grave doubt on *your *judgment.

So where does that leave us?
[/QUOTE]

Well, obviously you are allowed to have your own opinion. However, when you hold an opinion that is markedly different from a widely-held consensus view, you should be aware of that, and act accordingly.

For instance, there is a general consensus that The Princess Bride is an extremely entertaining movie. (Which I agree with). Now, suppose I think that TPB is garbage. Well, I’m perfectly allowed to have that opinion. In fact, if I were to start a thread entitled “The Princess Bride is garbage, and here’s why”, and explain my controversial opinion, well, that would be an interesting thread and a good use for Cafe Society.

On the other hand, if I then go into a discussion of, say, Gigli, and say “Wow, this movie was SO AWFUL! It was almost as bad as From Justin to Kelly or The Princess Bride”, I’m not posting in a very useful fashion. First of all, I’m likely to derail the discussion of Gigli. Secondly, when one mentions movie/book/TV show as a point of reference, there’s an implication that the referent is a well-known work with a well-known critical/public consensus. Thus, it’s quite reasonable to use The Princess Bride as a comparison-point for other movies… ie, “Stardust is a lot like The Princess Bride, but not quite as good”. If you post just that, there’s a clear implication that Stardust is a very good movie. Someone who hates The Princess Bride should NOT post just that one sentence, even if they happen to hate Stardust even more than TPB, making that sentence technically correct from their point of view.

Also, when you have an opinion that differs from the general consensus, it strikes me (although this may be just me) as the height of arrogance to randomly mention that opinion in passing without in any way acknowledging its unusuality. When you are comparing SFU to Stephen King, and talking about Stephen King dismissively, you’re basically framing the argument as “well, Stephen King is a hack. We all know that. That’s settled. That’s one of the starting points of this discussion. Now, let’s compare him to SFU…”
(And, yes, I would argue that there is in fact a general consensus that Stephen King, while no Shakespeare, is an extremely talented storyteller with a gift for crafting characters and situations that really get under your skin. There are plenty of threads about him, and most of the people posting in those threads talk about how much like at least some of his works, or at least some parts of some of his works…)

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
You’re supposed to move the merchandise, even in a video store, not “wow” the clientele with your superior taste and discriminating palate for canned entertainment. Frankly, if I asked the guy in our local video store his opinion on something and he responded with anything resembling your opinion, I’d think to myself: this guy’s a wanker. Who is he to be the arbiter of taste for his customers? And then I’d dismiss you as a possible source for reasonable input.
[/QUOTE]
You make a great number of assumptions, all of them wrong.

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
Saying that you didn’t care for X, but that many people did, as did critics is NOT the same as not recommending something and giving reasons for it.

Customer: “Would you recommend 6FU? I’ve heard of it.”

Video Store Worker: “I didn’t really care for it, but it won some awards and it’s a popular item for rental. It’s about a family who owns a funeral home.”

OR

Customer:" Would you recommend 6FU? I’ve heard of it."

Video Store Worker: " What a horrible show. It’s all about the people in it burying their feelings six feet under. Get it? It’s unpleasant to watch. It’s message is ‘life sucks; kill yourself now.’ I wouldn’t piss on any of the characters if they were on fire. Will that be all or would you care for some microwave popcorn?"
[/QUOTE]
Again, all of your assumptions are wrong.

[QUOTE=MaxTheVool]

Also, when you have an opinion that differs from the general consensus, it strikes me (although this may be just me) as the height of arrogance to randomly mention that opinion in passing without in any way acknowledging its unusuality. When you are comparing SFU to Stephen King, and talking about Stephen King dismissively, you’re basically framing the argument as “well, Stephen King is a hack. We all know that. That’s settled. That’s one of the starting points of this discussion…”
[/QUOTE]
Wow. I’m bookmarking this thread as an example of some of the most bizarrely irrational misreadings and twisted assumptions I think I’ve ever come across here.

I hope some day that I will stop being surprised that expressing a personal opinion in this forum almost guarantees a freeforall of bad blood and defensiveness. (No, come to think of it, I hope this always takes me by surprise.)

Anyway, now we have to derail the discussion about the show and talk about me, since that seems to be the consensus hijack. I resent being put in a position where I have to defend myself from kneejerk assumptions and personal aspersions, when, again, all I’ve done is expressed a personal opinion about an artwork. I haven’t said your baby is ugly or those jeans make you look fat. Unless you’re Alan Ball or Peter Krause, your ruffled feathers are irrational and, frankly, childish.

So I mount my defense; somehow it feels like it costs me some personal dignity to thus acknowledge the childish and irrational posts I’m responding to. My terse responses, immediately above, are terse because such irrational assumptions seemed to be unworthy of response. However, against my better judgment, I’ll go ahead and respond more completely. And, necessarily, defensively.

“Recommend,” to me, implies an active thing: when a customer asks me to recommend something, I recommend things that I like. I won’t be thus recommending 6’U. When someone asks me, out of the blue as it were, “Is 6’U any good?” I respond: “It has a big following/It’s a popular renter/[other variation on the popular consensus], but I didn’t like it much.” It kinda pisses me off that some of you take as a concrete, inarguable fact your outrageous assumption that I would not say such a thing.

Further, it’s no skin off my back which movies people rent: I’m not losing any business by talking them out of renting a particular movie; they’ll just choose another. Further, my customers expect me to be honest, not to just hard-sell them something popular. Now, obviously, there are exceptions: I can usually tell when the Stepford wife just wants her choice validated, so I tell her, “Yeah, A Good Year is a masterpiece for the ages; Keeping Mum will change your life.” Most of the time, however, if a customer asks me for my opinion about a movie/show/whatever, I give them my opinion. You’d be surprised, apparently, how few of them assume that I’m stating some kind of inarguable fact, or party-line consensus: IRL, people seem to know when a personal opinion is a personal opinion. Many people (you might want to sit down for this) even rent a title after I have responded to their request for my opinion with less than effusive enthusiasm.

So, enough about me? Is there anything further to discuss about 6’U, since that’s the titular subject of this thread?

One afternoon last summer I walked from my office to the parking deck and saw two transit cops standing near the elevator, blocking the open door. Someone (I’m guessing a homeless guy) had taken a big, messy shit on the elevator floor. I took the stairs instead. True story.

Posted by Lissener

It isn’t art, it’s entertainment. It’s a television series for rental in a video store. There’s no reason why it should conform to your ideals of ‘art’.
Everyone (except me in my earlier post) is giving you thoughtful discussion as to why they enjoyed (or not) this entertainment. They are writing in direct response to what you write, not necessarily what you mean.

You are being rather aggressive. Not everyone will have the same standards as you. We don’t expect television to be art, we’re not disappointed.
No-one is having a go at you personally. You seem to think we are.

You know how you do your job we don’t.
We only know what you tell us and it seemed, from your own posts, that you were behaving in a certain way. If that’s not how it is, then we can’t help the impression you gave us.

Seriously, it’s a TV show and it’s finished. I liked it, you didn’t. I will never convince you that I found it entertaining. You will never convince me that it should have conformed to a higher standard.

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
All of this is your opinion. The show was not to your taste-why not just say that, instead of trying to run the show and its fans down?
[/QUOTE]
Its fans? Cite?

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
If 99% of everything disappoints you, you have a long life ahead.
[/QUOTE]
No, that just proves I’m still (irrationally) an optimist. I watch almost everything I watch hoping–no, expecting–that it will be good. Otherwise I wouldn’t watch it; I’d move on to the next thing on my list.

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
99% vs 1% seems a bit black and white to me–how about 80/20?
[/QUOTE]
No, not really. I watch (clicking of abacus) about 1,000 movies a year. About 1% of them are not crap. Of course, the remaining 99% are varying degrees of crap, and some of them are crap on a motorcycle. But 99/1 seems about right to me.

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
Yes, I got it the first time you posted it.
[/QUOTE]
Whoosh.

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
I got it the very first show. Most people bury their feelings-or hide them or deny them. How like life this show is! How egregiously, aggressively unpleasant TV can be in refuting that very human aspect–but shows like SFU don’t. In SFU we saw a serious gay relationship, not camp, not comic relief, but a realistic one. We saw race relations, gender frictions, addictions, consequences for bad choices, love faded and worn out, control misconstrued as love, mental illness (realistically portrayed for once), and much more.
None of these things (except the healthy gay relationship) are pleasant or fun. It’s a drama. The plot depends on tension and conflict (but there was humor as well-the Kathy Bates character was wonderful). I don’t really need to 'splain this to you, do I? Underneath all of the scathing dismissal is this: the show was not to your taste. End of story.
[/QUOTE]
And how, exactly, did I suggest anything else? (And yes, the KB character is about the only character I liked.)

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
But I didn’t miss the point–you did. SFU has as much to do with soap operas, such as All My Children as soaps do with existential lit or the classics, i.e. not much except for characters changing over time. None of the plots are interchangeable-that’s your interpretation. Since you brought the point up, though-all literature (or pulp fic or soaps), they all essentially tell a story, and a story is fundamentally the change in characters over time. That may be all they have in common, but they do share that. To make another analogy, paintings start with marks on a flat surface, but after that one essential aspect, not so much…
[/QUOTE]
Sigh. Colder and colder; you’re now in a different time zone from the point. I never, never never never never, said that story, or change in character over time, or whatever definition you want to concoct for it, was bad. I said that “what happens next” was ***ALL ***that 6’U had going for it. When the ONLY reason you watch is to find resolution for a cliffhanger–repeating myself here, but you obviously didn’t read it the first time–then you’re in soapopera country. And change in a character is only good if it’s good. IOW, I think Stephen King is terrible writer because his characters ring so false. Sure they go through changes, but only to move the plot along. Ditto All My Children, ditto 6’U.

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
If I worked in a video store, I’d have the sense to reply to the customer that I didn’t care for the series, but that it was critically acclaimed and very popular. Is that so hard?
[/QUOTE]
You know what? Shame on you for taking your assumption that I don’t do the same thing as an inarguable given.

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
Or is your opinion the only one that matters?
[/quote]
Um, cite that I said so? My opinion is the one being solicited.

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
I work in a library; people ask me for suggestions all the time. I certainly don’t use their request as a chance to browbeat them about my discernment or make them feel lesser because of their supposed lack.
[/quote]
Again, shame on you for this.

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
Not even if they are asking for the latest Danielle Steele or Tabor Evans. It’s not my job to change their taste. (I am in no way equating SFU with Steele or Evans, btw).

You’re supposed to move the merchandise, even in a video store,
[/QUOTE]
Um, no. They’re gonna rent something anyway. I’m supposed to answer a question honestly, if only so they know if their taste agrees with mine for future such exchanges.

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
not “wow” the clientele with your superior taste and discriminating palate for canned entertainment. Frankly, if I asked the guy in our local video store his opinion on something and he responded with anything resembling your opinion,
[/QUOTE]
No; with your irrational *assumption *of how I express my opinions to a customer.

[QUOTE=eleanorigby]
I’d think to myself: this guy’s a wanker. Who is he to be the arbiter of taste for his customers? And then I’d dismiss you as a possible source for reasonable input.
[/QUOTE]
And some customer do realize that I don’t like all the same things they like. But I always try to explain *why *I don’t like something, if they ask, so it’s a learning experience all around. And let me just say I’m eternally grateful I don’t have you for a customer, although if I did I’d figure out pretty quickly that you’re one of those who doesn’t actually want an honest opinion; you just want me to validate your choice. That’s cool, I handle those customers with skill as well.

(FTR, the only titles I actively try to talk people out of renting, unsolicited, are Black Dahlia, Lady in the Water, and The Brothers Grimm, and then only if they’re regular customers whom I’m pretty sure won’t like them, and *then * I tell them why, so they can take my advice or leave it.)

Missed the edit window.

They are insulting you now, Lissener, again, in response to your own posts.

Get a grip man - It’s only TV.

[QUOTE=maggenpye]
Posted by Lissener
It isn’t art, it’s entertainment. It’s a television series for rental in a video store.
[/QUOTE]

Sorry, that’s art. It may not be *great *art, but as The Singing Detective, Buffy, and *NYPDBlue *have shown us, it certainly is capable of being great art.

[QUOTE=maggenpye]
Posted There’s no reason why it should conform to your ideals of ‘art’.
[/QUOTE]
Right. So it’s a good thing I never said it should; only that it doesn’t.

[QUOTE=maggenpye]
Everyone (except me in my earlier post) is giving you thoughtful discussion as to why they enjoyed (or not) this entertainment. They are writing in direct response to what you write, not necessarily what you mean.

You are being rather aggressive. Not everyone will have the same standards as you.
[/QUOTE]
This is the single point I’m trying to make.

[QUOTE=maggenpye]
We don’t expect television to be art, we’re not disappointed.
[/QUOTE]
That’s cool; I don’t see that it’s relevant.

[QUOTE=maggenpye]
No-one is having a go at you personally. You seem to think we are.
[/QUOTE]
I’m not suggesting that they’re having a go at me-as-me; only that, rather than discuss the show, we’re discussing the person who expressed an unpopular opinion. It’s personal in that sense; that this thread has become about the messenger, not the message.

[QUOTE=maggenpye]
You know how you do your job we don’t.
We only know what you tell us and it seemed, from your own posts, that you were behaving in a certain way. If that’s not how it is, then we can’t help the impression you gave us.

[/QUOTE]
Of course, but you could read more carefully; you could ask instead of assume; you could give some benefit of the doubt, rather than, what, the deficit of the doubt; you could make an effort not to assume the worst, in the absence of complete information. You could discuss the show instead of the poster.

[QUOTE=maggenpye]
Seriously, it’s a TV show and it’s finished. I liked it, you didn’t. I will never convince you that I found it entertaining. You will never convince me that it should have conformed to a higher standard.
[/QUOTE]
So . . . it’s a good thing that I have never had any such intention. I shared a personal opinion about a show I didn’t like. Get over it.

[QUOTE=maggenpye]
Missed the edit window.

They are insulting you now, Lissener, again, in response to your own posts.
Get a grip man - It’s only TV.
[/QUOTE]

For comprehension now: eleanorigby said I was running down the show’s fans. I asked her to point out where I had done so. That’s what “cite” means.

(snip)

Over it.

[QUOTE=cricetus]
The last few minutes of the final episode were brilliant; maybe the best conclusion ever, though the Newhart show of the 1980s is a close second.
[/QUOTE]

I agree…I don’t think I have ever seen a show wrap up as well, with absolutely no wiggle room for another episode…and I loved the last episodes of MASH, Mary Tyler Moore and even Frasier and Friends and Cheers…

But that last episode of Six Feet Under is a milestone in great series finales.

[QUOTE=DMark]
I agree…I don’t think I have ever seen a show wrap up as well, with absolutely no wiggle room for another episode…and I loved the last episodes of MASH, Mary Tyler Moore and even Frasier and Friends and Cheers…

But that last episode of Six Feet Under is a milestone in great series finales.
[/QUOTE]

Definitely went out on a high note. And again, the first season was great. One of the reasons I kept watching is that the first season was so awesome I was hoping the slough of despond the rest of the seasons dragged me through would be worth it, that the last season would make it all worthwhile. The finale was pretty dang good, but still didn’t balance out the middle bits, fyask me.

[QUOTE=cricetus]
The last few minutes of the final episode were brilliant; maybe the best conclusion ever, though the Newhart show of the 1980s is a close second.
[/QUOTE]

I agree- I watched in awed silence as the final montage played out.

I thought the seasons had their highs and lows- some story arcs I aboslutely hated- but it was absolutely compelling to watch.

And that, I think, is the end of that.