# Six (Impossible) Conditions Before People in California Are Free **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 15, 2020, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-impossible-conditions-before-people-in-california-are-free/851856 "2020-04-15T15:30:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2020, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-impossible-conditions-before-people-in-california-are-free/851856/122 "2020-04-21T14:04:34Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > But, I’ll play along. Do you think a law prohibiting gatherings of more than 50 people on Sundays would pass constitutional muster under those two clauses? Some judges think he restrictions are constitutional: > **[Judge denies Maryville Baptist Church's bid to block Gov. Beshear's...](https://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/2020/04/19/kentucky-judge-rules-against-maryville-baptist-church/5161410002/)** > > The church filed a lawsuit Friday saying that enforcement of Beshear's order discriminates against their rights under the First Amendment . Others don’t: > **[Federal judge blocks Kansas limits on religious gatherings](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/federal-judge-blocks-kansas-limits-religious-gatherings-n1187186)** > > “Churches and religious activities appear to have been singled out among essential functions for stricter treatment,” the judge wrote in his order. I don’t really see a solid argument that if nondenominational assemblies of a certain number of people are prohibited because of a major public health risk, and that is not unconstitutional; that denominational assemblies of the same number should not be prohibited even given the same major public health risk. As a matter of science and fact, we have seen many examples of coronavirus outbreaks that were due to large religious gatherings. As a matter of judgment, I have a hard time concluding that religious services override the safety of literally the entire community, so long as the restrictions persist only to the minimum extent that public health demands. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2020, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-impossible-conditions-before-people-in-california-are-free/851856/123 "2020-04-21T14:24:19Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > As a matter of judgment, I have a hard time concluding that religious services override the safety of literally the entire community, so long as the restrictions persist only to the minimum extent that public health demands. As I’ve said, I agree. There could be problems if the ban isn’t narrowly tailored enough, but, by and large, I agree. But I was asking RioRico about if the law would pass constitutional muster without the public health exception use of the police power. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2020, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-impossible-conditions-before-people-in-california-are-free/851856/124 "2020-04-21T17:28:50Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Churches were doing drive-thru confessions before Easter. > > There has also been drive-in church services in parking lots/fields. And people were ticketed by the police, even though the church goers remained in their own cars. You were talking about drive-_thru_ services, not drive-thru confessions(which would seem to involve only the Catholic Church), and not drive-_in_ services. Please tell me how a drive-_thru_ service would work? By the way, how does a drive-in confession work? Since it is supposed to be a private event, does every member of the family go through separately and, if so, how do those not yet able to legally drive get their turn to confess? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2020, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-impossible-conditions-before-people-in-california-are-free/851856/125 "2020-04-21T17:37:47Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > As I’ve said, I agree. There could be problems if the ban isn’t narrowly tailored enough, but, by and large, I agree. > > But I was asking RioRico about if the law would pass constitutional muster without the public health exception use of the police power. Ah, I see now. It was hard to follow that chain of arguments. If there were some other rationale than public health… I suppose so, as long as it equally applies to other gatherings without regard to the content/purpose of the gathering. Like, if there’s a major flood or earthquake and it isn’t safe to go out, something like that. But generally I’m thinking there must be lives on the line to have such limitations at all. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2020, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-impossible-conditions-before-people-in-california-are-free/851856/126 "2020-04-21T17:38:50Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You were talking about drive-_thru_ services, not drive-thru confessions(which would seem to involve only the Catholic Church), and not drive-_in_ services. Please tell me how a drive-_thru_ service would work? > By the way, how does a drive-in confession work? Since it is supposed to be a private event, does every member of the family go through separately and, if so, how do those not yet able to legally drive get their turn to confess? > **[Coronavirus begins to usher in new era of drive-in churches in Southern...](https://www.ocregister.com/2020/03/30/coronavirus-begins-to-usher-in-new-era-of-drive-in-churches-in-southern-california/)** > > “We have a responsibility as faith leaders to still give hope,” says one minister. “And hope is not quarantined.” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2020, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-impossible-conditions-before-people-in-california-are-free/851856/127 "2020-04-21T17:53:54Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > [Coronavirus begins to usher in new era of drive-in churches in Southern California – Orange County Register](https://www.ocregister.com/2020/03/30/coronavirus-begins-to-usher-in-new-era-of-drive-in-churches-in-southern-california/) I already understand how drive-in services work. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2020, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-impossible-conditions-before-people-in-california-are-free/851856/128 "2020-04-21T19:14:09Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > [Coronavirus begins to usher in new era of drive-in churches in Southern California – Orange County Register](https://www.ocregister.com/2020/03/30/coronavirus-begins-to-usher-in-new-era-of-drive-in-churches-in-southern-california/) Schuller? He’s still alive??? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2020, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-impossible-conditions-before-people-in-california-are-free/851856/129 "2020-04-21T19:53:16Z")
> [@carrps](#): > > Schuller? He’s still alive??? I think its his son. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2020, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-impossible-conditions-before-people-in-california-are-free/851856/130 "2020-04-21T21:22:51Z")
Some religions practice animal sacrifice. Some religions hold that children should receive corporal punishment. When these religions are enacted in the US, they violate laws and may be prosecuted. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2020, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-impossible-conditions-before-people-in-california-are-free/851856/131 "2020-04-21T21:30:58Z")
> [@susan](#): > > Some religions practice animal sacrifice. Some religions hold that children should receive corporal punishment. When these religions are enacted in the US, they violate laws and may be prosecuted. Animal sacrifice is kinda a grey area in the uSA: > **[Animal Sacrifice](https://firstamendment.mtsu.edu/article/animal-sacrifice/)** > > In its only animal sacrifice case, the Court said a city ordinance prohibiting animal sacrifice violated the First Amendment by targeting the Santeria religion. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2020, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-impossible-conditions-before-people-in-california-are-free/851856/132 "2020-04-21T21:32:34Z")
> [@susan](#): > > Some religions practice animal sacrifice. Some religions hold that children should receive corporal punishment. When these religions are enacted in the US, they violate laws and may be prosecuted. Corporal punishment is legal within reason and its not done just by the religious. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2020, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-impossible-conditions-before-people-in-california-are-free/851856/133 "2020-04-21T21:32:37Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **RioRico** : > > What are the spiritual consequences of failing to receive communion on any specific day? Or is that off-topic? That’s definitely above my pay grade, and I’m not sure but that it might be above the Pope’s, too. Doctrine about the Sacraments is usually phrased in terms of “should”, without mention of “or else what”, and with an extra helping of “God is mysterious”. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2020, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-impossible-conditions-before-people-in-california-are-free/851856/134 "2020-04-21T23:10:23Z")
> [@RioRico](#): > > What are the spiritual consequences of failing to receive communion on any specific day? Or is that off-topic? There aren’t spiritual consequence for any one specific day. There’s a requirement to receive communion at least once a year, during the Easter season unless there is good reason to do so at another time of year. ( in the US this year, Easter season is from March 1 through June 7) Assuming that a particular diocese hasn’t dispensed Catholics from this obligation (some have) , the pandemic would certainly constitute good reason to fulfill the duty at another time of year. And those who believe there will be spiritual consequences will surely find a way before next Easter. ---
**Author:** ![dogbutler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dogbutler/32/428_2.png) [@dogbutler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dogbutler)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2020, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-impossible-conditions-before-people-in-california-are-free/851856/135 "2020-04-21T23:17:19Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > That’s definitely above my pay grade, and I’m not sure but that it might be above the Pope’s, too. Doctrine about the Sacraments is usually phrased in terms of “should”, without mention of “or else what”, and with an extra helping of “God is mysterious”. Per the Catholic Catechism: “God has bound Salvation in the Sacraments, but he is not bound Himself by them.” So if you have to skip Communion to avoid killing the entire Altar Guild, God can still deliver the same amount of Grace. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2020, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-impossible-conditions-before-people-in-california-are-free/851856/136 "2020-04-21T23:31:29Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Yes, of course. I’m not saying the Constitution is a suicide pact. Clearly if we were faced with a situation far beyond anything the founders comprehended, the yes, we create a new foundational understanding. > > But this isn’t it. The founders knew of pandemics, and ones with a far, far higher death rate than this one. Germ theory didn’t really start to become generally accepted knowledge until 100 years after the Constitution was written, so claiming that the founders made decisions about rights like “freedom of assembly” with the knowledge that it would lead to greater death during times of disease is clearly wrong. ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2020, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-impossible-conditions-before-people-in-california-are-free/851856/137 "2020-04-22T07:27:45Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Plus, I believe Northern Piper is Canadian. I’m quite aware, and never meant to imply that he claimed to be a US attorney. You should know who I referred to, as I’ve asked him directly a few times, with no response yet. > [@](#): > > But, I’ll play along. Do you think a law prohibiting gatherings of more than 50 people on Sundays would pass constitutional muster under those two clauses? IMHO a gangfest ban would pass muster if tailored for a SPECIFIC event or situation. Generally banning any sect’s holy day would not. Leave them Wednesdayfarians alone! But a state prohibition of nude protests on Superbowl Sunday might be ruled legit. > [@Hamlet](#): > > But I was asking RioRico about if the law would pass constitutional muster without the public health exception use of the police power. You didn’t mention public health so that’s a different question, and I already cited court support of limited action. Here’s that quote again from the Cornell Law site: > [@](#): > > “It has long been held that the Free Exercise Clause does not necessarily prevent the government from requiring the doing of some act or forbidding the doing of some act merely because religious beliefs underlie the conduct in question.” Faith does not justify spreading contagion. Public health hazards should be isolated. The faithful can reach their heavenly reward by themselves, not taking me along. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-impossible-conditions-before-people-in-california-are-free/851856/138 "2020-04-27T14:19:55Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > But at this moment, group assemblies aren’t peaceful, they are at high risk spreading disease. i think that’s a much broader definition of “peaceful” than I’m accustomed to. “Unsafe” is not necessarily the same as “not peaceful”. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-impossible-conditions-before-people-in-california-are-free/851856/139 "2020-04-27T14:41:26Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > i think that’s a much broader definition of “peaceful” than I’m accustomed to. “Unsafe” is not necessarily the same as “not peaceful”. But these are more than unsafe, because that implies that you’re just in danger when you’re in the group. These people are likely bringing things home and infecting others. I can definitely see how actually causing harm to people outside your group could be considered non-peaceful. Furthermore, if they are forcing people to be less than six feet away from them, that has an even bigger argument for being non-peaceful. Same with not wearing masks. If they’re causing harm while part of the group, surely that isn’t peaceful. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-impossible-conditions-before-people-in-california-are-free/851856/140 "2020-04-27T14:53:40Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > But these are more than unsafe, because that implies that you’re just in danger when you’re in the group. These people are likely bringing things home and infecting others. I can definitely see how actually causing harm to people outside your group could be considered non-peaceful. > > Furthermore, if they are forcing people to be less than six feet away from them, that has an even bigger argument for being non-peaceful. Same with not wearing masks. If they’re causing harm while part of the group, surely that isn’t peaceful. Peaceful = quiet, not using physical violence, etc. Safe = not posing a danger to others. These are totally different. You can totally be standing somewhere, minding your own business, in quiet, and yet be silently spreading deadly germs/viruses to people a few feet away from you. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2020, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-impossible-conditions-before-people-in-california-are-free/851856/141 "2020-04-27T15:11:26Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > i think that’s a much broader definition of “peaceful” than I’m accustomed to. “Unsafe” is not necessarily the same as “not peaceful”. Does the First Amendment protect unsafe assemblies? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-impossible-conditions-before-people-in-california-are-free/851856.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-impossible-conditions-before-people-in-california-are-free/851856.md?page=8)