# Six unfairly obscure medieval villains **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 4, 2011, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-unfairly-obscure-medieval-villains/566335 "2011-01-04T08:28:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-unfairly-obscure-medieval-villains/566335/81 "2011-01-13T07:03:01Z")
_eagerly awaiting number one_ ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-unfairly-obscure-medieval-villains/566335/82 "2011-01-13T07:44:39Z")
> [@Mississippienne](#): > > Basil > > [snip] > > Eudokia Ingerine > > [snip] > > Eudokia Dekapolitissa > > [snip] > > Basiliskianos Is Eudokia a name or a title? (A quick Google is suggesting name, but giving just enough evidence that it could be a name-turned-title, like Caesar) Because if it’s the former, the naming of the people involved in this debacle is kind of eerie. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-unfairly-obscure-medieval-villains/566335/83 "2011-01-13T09:01:25Z")
It’s a name, but no more eerie than running into a mess set in, say, Mexico with a Francisco, Paco, Lupe and Lupita, or one in Catalonia involving Jordi, another Jordi, did anybody need a third Jordi?, a Montse and a Montserrat. Or one involving Spaniards about 20 with a Yeni, a Jenifér (pronounced with a hard J) and two Rubenes… ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-unfairly-obscure-medieval-villains/566335/84 "2011-01-13T12:16:44Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > For example the story of Edward II taking a hot poker up the rear _might_ be true ( it is mentioned in 5 of 25 or more sources ), but it also might be derived from later propaganda designed to blacken his name ( via its implication of anal rape and linking that with charges of sodomy ). Far to often it is simply impossible to tell. With modern forensics, couldn’t examination of Edward II’s skeleton settle this issue? Let’s root for a lawsuit, perhaps brought by Roger Mortimer’s heirs, to exhume the royal corpse! 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-unfairly-obscure-medieval-villains/566335/85 "2011-01-13T12:30:13Z")
I always liked the unfortunately King Arses of Persia- however he was well before these times. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-unfairly-obscure-medieval-villains/566335/86 "2011-01-13T13:06:28Z")
Having fun with these, **Mississippienne**. Are you a Will Cuppy reader? These bios give me a pleasant _The Decline and Fall of Practically Everybody_ vibe. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-unfairly-obscure-medieval-villains/566335/87 "2011-01-13T16:10:29Z")
> [@Oslo\_Ostragoth](#): > > Seconded. As long as the stories Miss tells aren’t complete fiction, I can let my imagination run wild about the bad old days and enjoy them. Knock yourself out. But they are pretty much complete fiction. Imagine if someone wrote an entertaining, engaging bio of President Obama on the SDMB and used [FreeRepublic.com](http://FreeRepublic.com) as the main source without even telling anyone. Imagine it’s also not a parody piece, either. Suppose the bio is honestly passed off as truth. It wouldn’t be nitpicking to point out that no, Obama was not actually born in Kenya, is not a fundamentalist Muslim, and is not a member of the Communist Party. It wouldn’t be shocking if people were a bit skeptical, and maybe after the author mentioned that the source was a bunch of freepers, they might feel a little misled. Nobody’s asking for a huge amount of historical rigor here, just a basic separation of what we know from fantasy. It’s not nitpicking to tell another adult that Santa Claus doesn’t exist or that you can’t learn much history by reading The Lord of the Rings. If this poops anyone’s party, well, sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-unfairly-obscure-medieval-villains/566335/88 "2011-01-13T16:14:50Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > With modern forensics, couldn’t examination of Edward II’s skeleton settle this issue? Let’s root for a lawsuit, perhaps brought by Roger Mortimer’s heirs, to exhume the royal corpse! 🆒 Not if the poker only did soft-tissue damage, I suspect. ---
**Author:** ![seanchai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@seanchai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seanchai)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-unfairly-obscure-medieval-villains/566335/89 "2011-01-13T18:43:12Z")
Maeglin, whether or not you’re enthralled by these tales, others, including myself, are enjoying them. Please understand that we’ve completely taken a shine to Mississippienne’s tales. We understand that you are not of the same opinion. Stop raining on our parade - if you upset M enough that she stops telling her stories, we won’t be cheering you on, eh? You aren’t in her league as an entertainer. As she says, she isn’t writing an historical thesis, but sharing some of her own research / enjoyment of medieval European history. Mississippianne, do go on with your entertaining historical tales. I, for one, enjoy a great story and don’t have to run to the library to back check each fact. However, do be warned - you’re tickling an interest in more European history. I’ll never be anywhere near your level of knowledge, or come close to your ability to tell a story. However, if I start collecting a library on your era of history, I shall blame you for another reading frenzy! On with the show! an seanchai ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2011, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-unfairly-obscure-medieval-villains/566335/90 "2011-01-13T20:20:04Z")
> [@Shirley\_Ujest](#): > > Do you have a blog dedicated to this loveliness? If not, you really need to get one. I’ll even learn how to subscribe and stuff. > > I LOVE THIS sooooo much. Or podcasts. It’s WAY better than the Stuff You Missed in History Class blog (whose hosts I detest- way too [Delicious Dish](http://www.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&safe=off&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&tbs=isch:1&q=delicious+dish+snl&revid=1054273748&sa=X&ei=Ll4vTaWsGcXflgf8h5C1CQ&ved=0CC8Q1QIoAA)meets sorority girls). ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-unfairly-obscure-medieval-villains/566335/91 "2011-01-15T00:19:45Z")
Sorry, but I’m going to have to weigh in on **Maeglin** ’s side. I was enjoying the stories as much as anyone, until I read the one about Marozia, and saw that chestnut about Sergius III and the second “Cadaver Synod”; I then realized that stories that were virtually certain to be untrue were being fobbed off as historical fact. I don’t like being lied to. I’m not suggesting that **Mississippienne** shouldn’t tell these stories; they’re great fun, and I appreciate both the work that went into learning the history and typing them out, and the wit and verve she tells them with. I don’t think **Maeglin** is suggesting it either. I think both of us are saying that a few words in the OP, about discredited sources or history written by enemies, would have been nice. ---
**Author:** ![Hedda\_Rosa](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hedda_rosa/32/1204_2.png) [@Hedda\_Rosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hedda_Rosa)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-unfairly-obscure-medieval-villains/566335/92 "2011-01-15T03:31:28Z")
I am enjoying these posts and take them as I do any historical fiction - more or less representative of the period, while possibly not applying the most rigorous academic standards. The point is to first entertain and secondly intrigue enough to inspire future research on the part of the reader. Any number of historical fiction authors are more or less based on biased or discredited sources; still, if it is a thumping good tale and makes me go and research the real history for myself (with whatever primary or secondary sources as are available), so much the better. **Maeglin** next time I personally would love to hear your suggestion of alternate sources without all of the pooping on everyone’s fun. And just to share, a related podcast I have been enjoying. [http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/europe-from-its-origins/id303246052](http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/europe-from-its-origins/id303246052) ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2011, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-unfairly-obscure-medieval-villains/566335/93 "2011-01-15T03:33:07Z")
> [@Nametag](#): > > Sorry, but I’m going to have to weigh in on **Maeglin** ’s side. I was enjoying the stories as much as anyone, until I read the one about Marozia, and saw that chestnut about Sergius III and the second “Cadaver Synod”; I then realized that stories that were virtually certain to be untrue were being fobbed off as historical fact. I don’t like being lied to. > > I’m not suggesting that **Mississippienne** shouldn’t tell these stories; they’re great fun, and I appreciate both the work that went into learning the history and typing them out, and the wit and verve she tells them with. I don’t think **Maeglin** is suggesting it either. I think both of us are saying that a few words in the OP, about discredited sources or history written by enemies, would have been nice. Then start another thread somewhere else. It’s tacky to spoil the mood of this one. ---
**Author:** ![seanchai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b782af/32.png) [@seanchai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/seanchai)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-unfairly-obscure-medieval-villains/566335/94 "2011-01-16T02:43:38Z")
I’m still waiting for #1 - c’mon, Mississippienne, we’re still waiting:) an seanchai ---
**Author:** ![Mississippienne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d2c977/32.png) [@Mississippienne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mississippienne)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-unfairly-obscure-medieval-villains/566335/95 "2011-01-16T11:01:09Z")
What makes me angry is that **Maeglin** ’s comments might make readers assume that I just flat-out made this stuff up. For those who would like to take a peek at the sources I used to write about Basil, here ya go. Have at it: \*Vita Basilii \*(Life of Basil), commissioned by his grandson Konstantinos VII Porphyrogenitus, is the ‘official’ account of Basil’s rise and reign. This tells us of Basil meeting Nikolaos, Theophilitzes, and his ‘spiritual’ union with Danelis’ son. _The Continuator of George the Monk_ also backs up VB when it comes to Nikolaos and Theophilitzes. \*Theophanes Continuatus \*tells us of Theophilitzes’ penchant for handsome young men. _Luitprand of Cremona_ gives us the story of Michael spotting Basil at church and being so taken with the way Basil “excelled all others in physique” that he went to the abbot to see about getting and keeping him. _Leonis Grammatici Chronographia_tells us that Basil married Eudokia (though continuing to share her with Michael) and was also given Michael’s sister Thekla as a concubine. Leo and the Con. Geo. Monk (above) give virtually identical accounts of how Basil entered into a spiritual union with Nikolaos in church and also how they liked to frolic together in bathhouses. \*Genesios \*talks about Michael’s adoration for Basil and the many honors he gave him. Now frankly, taking all these sources together gives ME a pretty clear picture of who Basil was and what he did. It’s also worth noting that quite a few historians have mentioned the exceptionally homoerotic relationship between Michael and Basil, which is hinted at about as boldly as anyone could’ve by Luitprand. Romilly Jenkins seems to have been the first to accuse Michael of ‘homosexualism’ (sic) with Basil back in the 1960s, and others, including John Boswell and Dr. Shaun Tougher, also discuss it. Mostly, though, I don’t want anyone leaving this thread thinking that I just made a bunch of crap up and posted about it. If you don’t think Luitprand was telling the truth, or even just repeating a saucy story he heard, fine. But I’m basing what I wrote on the best sources available to me. If **Maeglin** wants to write a thread rehabilitating Basil’s image, he’s welcome to it. ---
**Author:** ![Mississippienne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d2c977/32.png) [@Mississippienne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mississippienne)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-unfairly-obscure-medieval-villains/566335/96 "2011-01-16T11:13:31Z")
> [@Tengu](#): > > Is Eudokia a name or a title? (A quick Google is suggesting name, but giving just enough evidence that it could be a name-turned-title, like Caesar) Because if it’s the former, the naming of the people involved in this debacle is kind of eerie. Eudokia and Basil are both names. Byzantine women, at least the highborn ones, only had a pool of like five names to choose from (Anna, Eudokia, Maria, Theodora, and Irene are maybe the most common). In this they were slightly better off than their more Western European sisters, who at any given time all seemed to have been christened with the same three names. Byzantine men were slightly better off than the women when it came to naming, but not by a whole hell of a lot. Really I should call Basil by his proper Greek name, Basileios. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2011, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-unfairly-obscure-medieval-villains/566335/97 "2011-01-16T15:45:42Z")
> [@Mississippienne](#): > > What makes me angry is that **Maeglin** ’s comments might make readers assume that I just flat-out made this stuff up. For those who would like to take a peek at the sources I used to write about Basil, here ya go. Have at it: > > \*Vita Basilii \*(Life of Basil), commissioned by his grandson Konstantinos VII Porphyrogenitus, is the ‘official’ account of Basil’s rise and reign. This tells us of Basil meeting Nikolaos, Theophilitzes, and his ‘spiritual’ union with Danelis’ son. > _The Continuator of George the Monk_ also backs up VB when it comes to Nikolaos and Theophilitzes. > \*Theophanes Continuatus \*tells us of Theophilitzes’ penchant for handsome young men. > _Luitprand of Cremona_ gives us the story of Michael spotting Basil at church and being so taken with the way Basil “excelled all others in physique” that he went to the abbot to see about getting and keeping him. > _Leonis Grammatici Chronographia_tells us that Basil married Eudokia (though continuing to share her with Michael) and was also given Michael’s sister Thekla as a concubine. Leo and the Con. Geo. Monk (above) give virtually identical accounts of how Basil entered into a spiritual union with Nikolaos in church and also how they liked to frolic together in bathhouses. > \*Genesios \*talks about Michael’s adoration for Basil and the many honors he gave him. > > Now frankly, taking all these sources together gives ME a pretty clear picture of who Basil was and what he did. It’s also worth noting that quite a few historians have mentioned the exceptionally homoerotic relationship between Michael and Basil, which is hinted at about as boldly as anyone could’ve by Luitprand. Romilly Jenkins seems to have been the first to accuse Michael of ‘homosexualism’ (sic) with Basil back in the 1960s, and others, including John Boswell and Dr. Shaun Tougher, also discuss it. > > Mostly, though, I don’t want anyone leaving this thread thinking that I just made a bunch of crap up and posted about it. If you don’t think Luitprand was telling the truth, or even just repeating a saucy story he heard, fine. But I’m basing what I wrote on the best sources available to me. If **Maeglin** wants to write a thread rehabilitating Basil’s image, he’s welcome to it. Frankly, I do have access to the library at Yale, and I can fact check for myself, thanks very much. Go back to recounting tales, I want some entertainment! Procopius really was a nasty worm, wasn’t he? Talk about a backstabbing bitch… ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2011, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-unfairly-obscure-medieval-villains/566335/98 "2011-01-19T10:44:56Z")
> [@Mississippienne](#): > > … “from her early youth, [Marozia] had been inflamed by the fires of Venus”; Marozia set her sights on none other than the pope himself. She flashed him her tits, and soon Sergius III was shacked up with her in happily unwedded bliss. > … > Pope John X forced Marozia to look at the mutilated body of her husband and take heed; that just seems to have pissed her off. > Marozia turned right around and married Guido of Tuscany in 925. They moved against Pope John X, seized him and threw him into prison, where he was then smothered. We’re still awaiting nomination #1, but if we have to vote now, my vote is for Marozia. Consider it the romantic in me. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Cheez\_Whia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d26b3c/32.png) [@Cheez\_Whia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheez_Whia)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-unfairly-obscure-medieval-villains/566335/99 "2011-01-27T13:18:32Z")
We’re still waiting for number one! Pretty please? ---
**Author:** ![gallows\_fodder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8c91f0/32.png) [@gallows\_fodder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gallows_fodder)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2011, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-unfairly-obscure-medieval-villains/566335/100 "2011-02-21T20:50:09Z")
Bumping this a month late – who could be worse than these five already mentioned? PS. _Somebody_ needs to make a biopic on Fulk Nerra, tout de suite. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-unfairly-obscure-medieval-villains/566335.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-unfairly-obscure-medieval-villains/566335.md?page=6)