# Six-year-olds, gender identity, and parental rights **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 26, 2000, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-year-olds-gender-identity-and-parental-rights/30839 "2000-08-26T15:51:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2000, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-year-olds-gender-identity-and-parental-rights/30839/1 "2000-08-26T15:51:32Z")
I originally posted this [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=35963), but I don’t think it’s receiving the attention it deserves buried 20 posts deep in another thread dealing with a broader issue. Here’s the relevant parts of my original post on the subject, as well as a [link](http://www.msnbc.com/local/wcmh/31424.asp) to the local news story I saw that caused me to post. > [@](#): > > A couple here (Columbus, OH) has just been forced to surrender custody of their six-year-old child to Children’s Services. Their son, from the time he was two years old, insisted that he was a girl. At five, he was diagnosed with Gender Identity Disorder by a psychiatrist at Cincinnati Children’s Hospital. The parents considered all their options for courses of treatment, and after a great deal of soul-searching, decided to enroll their child in first grade as a girl, according to the child’s wishes. They refer to the child using feminine pronouns, and he wears dresses and jewelry. When Children’s Services got wind of it, they forced the parents to give up their child pending investigation. > > Now, I have mixed feelings about this. For one, they were working with a respected doctor who had diagnosed their child as having a disorder. However, I’m not sure which is best for the child–subjecting him to the ridicule and ignorance of society, or stifling him into being something he’s not. Either way, I think that the decision cannot be made by a six-year-old, and it was ultimately up to the parents to determine which was better for the child. I’m not sure if what they did could be considered abuse, but I’m not sure if they did the right thing, either. Then I think of all the transsexuals who said they knew from their earliest memories that they were different…I just don’t know. > > The parents are already battling this in court–they have two attorneys, one man, and one M-to-F transsexual. Should be interesting, to say the least. But could anyone possibly allow their child to make a decision that important at such a young age? The parents look at it as acceptance. I’m thinking I look at it as the greater of two evils. Thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![SanibelMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e4f/32.png) [@SanibelMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanibelMan)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2000, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-year-olds-gender-identity-and-parental-rights/30839/2 "2000-08-26T15:57:33Z")
But change must start somewhere. Should we expect that in 10, or 20, or 50 years, transsexuals should still supress their feelings until late in life? Life is not going to be easy for this child, but perhaps it’s the first step to acceptance. ---
**Author:** ![Persephone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecc23a/32.png) [@Persephone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Persephone)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2000, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-year-olds-gender-identity-and-parental-rights/30839/3 "2000-08-26T16:50:59Z")
I don’t know which is better, either. I don’t think the parents should have been forced to give up the child, though. The kid has enough problems–yanking him out of his home cannot be helpful. Working with the doctors is good. At least the parents had the good sense to address the fact that there _is_ a problem, and take the appropriate steps to try and get a diagnosis, and help their child in whatever way they could. But what kind of help can they give him when he’s been forcibly taken from them, and what kind of help can he receive from the grossly overworked, grossly underpaid CPS staff? Not much, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2000, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-year-olds-gender-identity-and-parental-rights/30839/4 "2000-08-26T16:54:06Z")
John Varley once wrote a short SF story titled, I believe, “Options”, in which sex-reassignment surgery was trivial to perform and could be done and un-done over and over again on an outpatient basis. Right now, though, sex-reassignment surgery is expensive, has a long recovery period, and requires the permanent removal of the gonads (and in the case of F-to-M surgery, the uterus). Furthermore, while M-to-F surgeons have gotten pretty good at their craft and can make convincing female genitalia out of male body parts (including a working clitoris), F-to-M surgery is still abyssmally inadequate. Due to these limitations, persons wanting to get sex-reassignment surgery in the U.S. are _required_ to live in the role of their “target gender” for at least one year, and pass a psychological screening from at least two psychiatrists, before they are allowed to get the surgery. This period is called the “real-life trial.” However, the U.S. allows these transsexuals to start taking hormones immediately; in Canada, even the hormones are off-limits until the transsexual person goes through the real-life trial for at least a year. Most transsexuals describe the real-life trial as “hellish” – most of their old friends desert them, and if they do not look convincing as a member of their target gender, they don’t make many new friends, either. And of course, getting beaten up or raped or even murdered for being a “freak” is a constant threat. A would-be transsexual has the option at any time during the real-life trial to back out. It sounds like this child’s parents were just letting her embark on the first steps of the real-life trial. Sure, the poor little transsexual has no idea of the social hell she’s about to face, but neither do most adult transsexuals. Eventually, every little kid, even the “normal” ones, discovers how cruel their peers can be. If they enroll her in school, and the word gets out that she’s got a wiener, and the attacks and ostricism become unbearable and she changes her mind and wants to be a boy to “fit in,” the parents can always enroll her/him in a different school. ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2000, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-year-olds-gender-identity-and-parental-rights/30839/5 "2000-08-26T16:59:37Z")
I’d like to give the parents the benefit of the doubt here. They’ve consulted doctors, and hopefully were working towards some kind of resolution to this problem. They probably have the child’s best interests at heart, and he is certainly not old enough to understand or make this kind of decision for himself. This doesn’t sound like abuse, so I don’t think CPS should have removed the child. BTW, irrelevant, but they let him wear jewelry? Do most parents even let their six-year old daughters wear jewelry? ---
**Author:** ![psycat90](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@psycat90](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psycat90)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2000, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-year-olds-gender-identity-and-parental-rights/30839/6 "2000-08-26T17:00:46Z")
I don’t think that qualifies as abuse. Clearly, they love their child, I’m sure the decision was not an easy one. But I think they made the right one. If they fear the child will be subject to ridicule, and I don’t doubt that he will be, school children are infamous for it, then perhaps they should consider Home-Schooling. ---
**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2000, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-year-olds-gender-identity-and-parental-rights/30839/7 "2000-08-26T17:14:02Z")
If a very young boy child says, “I’m a girl,” don’t parents simply say, “No; you’re a boy,” and then offer proof? I’m having difficulty comprehending a child having a gender identity crisis that young. This couldn’t have been nipped in the bud at 2? 3? 4? Trying to think back to when I was very young, I don’t think my gender identity was a subject that was foremost on my mind. I probably considered myself a boy and thought and acted like one because I was TOLD I was one, and because the evidence was all around me (I have a penis; I look like other children who are identified as boys; I don’t look like other children who are identified as girls). ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2000, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-year-olds-gender-identity-and-parental-rights/30839/8 "2000-08-26T18:41:20Z")
You CAN feel that something is deeply wrong with your sexual indentity - gender wise - at age 6, but how this get’s diagnosed exactly as a true sexual identity disorder at **that young of an age** is my only question. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2000, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-year-olds-gender-identity-and-parental-rights/30839/9 "2000-08-26T18:50:50Z")
How nice for you, Milossarian, but for some people it is just not that simple. ---
**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2000, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-year-olds-gender-identity-and-parental-rights/30839/10 "2000-08-26T20:10:03Z")
matt - I hope my answer wasn’t offensive to you. I’m trying to understand this. We all have known kids (or WERE kids) who were more interested in activities typically associated with the opposite gender. But I have a hard time imagining a 4-6 year old boy insisting to his parents that he’s a girl - or insisting he’s a boy, for that matter. That’s pretty deep thinking for such a young child. At what point does childhood confusion and a need to clarify information become some long-named psychological disorder? ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2000, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-year-olds-gender-identity-and-parental-rights/30839/11 "2000-08-26T20:46:30Z")
At this point. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2000, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-year-olds-gender-identity-and-parental-rights/30839/12 "2000-08-26T21:29:44Z")
Tough call. I’m going to come down on the side of the parents, though. They went through all of the steps, spoke to a shrink, and I imagine that they spent a lot of sleepless nights wondering if they were doing the right thing. I sincerely hope that they win, and can make their child’s life more bearable than it seems destined to be. Waste Flick Lives! ---
**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2000, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-year-olds-gender-identity-and-parental-rights/30839/13 "2000-08-26T21:46:29Z")
Thanks for clearing that up, Matt :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Sterra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Sterra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterra)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2000, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-year-olds-gender-identity-and-parental-rights/30839/14 "2000-08-26T21:58:25Z")
The problem is there is little to no information about this subject, however what exactly is the abuse? ---
**Author:** ![Geek\_Mecha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecae2f/32.png) [@Geek\_Mecha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Geek_Mecha)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2000, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-year-olds-gender-identity-and-parental-rights/30839/15 "2000-08-26T23:16:34Z")
Everything that I’ve read about GID supports that people with it have known it since they were very young. It was never anything they just suddenly realized in their teens. For that reason, I disagree that a 6-year old child doesn’t know what he’s talking about when he says such a thing. I see no reason to assume it’s just a phase. Milossarian, you’re right, that IS pretty deep thinking for a child. Isn’t that more so a reason to take it seriously? If the child’s parents have been calling him a her (at her insistence) and he’s been wearing girls’ clothing for a couple years, it doesn’t sound like to me like he’s confused at all. Anthracite, they probably have a battery of test that can help determine childhood GIDs. I suspect most of these tests consist of body image assessment tests similar to what was described in Thomas Harris’ _The Silence of the Lambs._ Not exactly a textbook reference, but just to give you an idea. I think the parents are doing right by supporting their child the way they are. This kid will need the love and acceptance of her parents as she grows up. Drain Bead, quick question: Did the parents consult just one doctor, or did they get a second/third opinion? ---
**Author:** ![flodnak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/838e76/32.png) [@flodnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flodnak)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2000, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-year-olds-gender-identity-and-parental-rights/30839/16 "2000-08-27T06:37:25Z")
**Milossarian** , have you been around any six-year-olds lately? The resident 6yo in this household has never been in the slightest bit of doubt that he is a boy, since he was old enough to comprehend that people came in two basic varieties. More than that, he loves being a boy. It’s not something that occupies a lot of his time or conscious thought (read: he’s outgrown the extreme penis fascination stage), but it’s also not something that could be altered by the power of suggestion. And the same is true of all of his little friends and classmates; although they don’t always follow stereotypes, none of them is confused about his or her sex, and it’s a big part of who they are. This is the age when boys and girls commonly decide to play separately. This is the age when they actively seek out role models of their own sex to imitate, and start paying attention to what society expects of members of their sex. I simply cannot believe that a child of six would be confused about this because no one thought to point out to him that he’s actually a boy. I also cannot believe this little fellow’s parents drug him to a psychiatrist without considering the idea that, gee, maybe we should tell him he isn’t a girl? ---
**Author:** ![evilbeth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/evilbeth/32/2268_2.png) [@evilbeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/evilbeth)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2000, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-year-olds-gender-identity-and-parental-rights/30839/17 "2000-08-27T09:54:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Milossarian \* > \*\* > I’m having difficulty comprehending a child having a gender identity crisis that young. This couldn’t have been nipped in the bud at 2? 3? 4? > > Trying to think back to when I was very young, I don’t think my gender identity was a subject that was foremost on my mind. I probably considered myself a boy and thought and acted like one because I was TOLD I was one, and because the evidence was all around me (I have a penis; I look like other children who are identified as boys; I don’t look like other children who are identified as girls). > > \*\* With all due respect, Milo, I think the reason you don’t understand is because you didn’t have a gender identity crisis. It is useless to compare this little boy’s (girl’s?) experience with your own because you never had any question that you were male. I mean, I’m sure that the little boy didn’t just wake up when day and say, “I think I’m really a girl” and they went with it. I would wager a guess that the first million or so times the boy tried to explain to his parents that he was really a girl, they did precisely as you suggested–they told him he wasn’t and explained why. However, I guess there comes a point where you have to realize that your child is not simply confused about plumbing and terminology but that something is really not as it should be. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2000, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-year-olds-gender-identity-and-parental-rights/30839/18 "2000-08-27T16:18:21Z")
Having gender identity disorder is **not** something that can be explained easily to one who does not have it. The thought of feeling like you are trapped in a foreign, alien body is not one that most can appreciate. The fear of mirrors, because all they do is show you a stranger. Not wanting to do anything that a “little girl” or “little boy” is supposed to want to do. Not feeling comfortable with the same outward sex. Not feeling right or comfortable in the clothes they force you to wear. Laying awake at night and asking God what is wrong with you, and are you in actuality a prisoner who is being punished. Even a 6-year old can know **something** is wrong. IMO they do not make a firm, conscious decision of “oh, I’m a girl not a boy!”, or “I’m a boy, not a girl”. Instead, they just know every hour of every day that something is not right, and they wish that they would stop hating themselves, and feeling like they are an alien, a freak, a misfit that was never meant to live. But for most people, it is impossible to imagine. ---
**Author:** ![zenith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@zenith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zenith)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2000, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-year-olds-gender-identity-and-parental-rights/30839/19 "2000-08-28T01:32:32Z")
I grew up with a girl who eventually had a sex change operation. She was raised as a girl and while she never discussed the matter, I think, looking back, it was appparent all along that she wasn’t comfortable with her gender. She prefered to dress like a guy and do the kind of things guys liked to do. She tried to be a female, married and had two kids, but she was never happy. Eventually she moved away, had a sex change and I gather is farely happy now. Her kids weren’t comfortable with her decision and moved in with her parents. I think perhaps early counciling could have prevented a lot of grief in her case. Looking from that view, I think the parents of the little boy were on the right track an social services were wrong to intervene. ---
**Author:** ![dixiechiq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@dixiechiq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dixiechiq)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2000, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-year-olds-gender-identity-and-parental-rights/30839/20 "2000-08-28T03:31:37Z")
from my earliest memories, i’ve self-identified as feminine. but since i was born with a penis, the doctors and teachers and parents all told me i was a boy. i even came to believe it, and i spent all my time “acting” like a boy of sorts. i’ve figured out the truth for myself, and i’m as sure i’m a woman as you are of your gender. i’ve known this on some level since early childhood, and if i had had anyone to validate my internal feelings, my life would have been vastly different. i’m in full support of the parents who made this brave choice. too bad it has to be brave. if the child is somehow wrong about herself, she can quit dressing that way,and be a boy instead. it’s not like she has had surgery or hormones. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/six-year-olds-gender-identity-and-parental-rights/30839.md?page=2)