# Skins reportedly give up 3 1st rd & 1 2nd rd picks for #2 this year. Thoughts? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [March 10, 2012, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skins-reportedly-give-up-3-1st-rd-1-2nd-rd-picks-for-2-this-year-thoughts/615362 "2012-03-10T03:45:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skins-reportedly-give-up-3-1st-rd-1-2nd-rd-picks-for-2-this-year-thoughts/615362/41 "2012-03-12T12:56:19Z")
> [@Hippy\_Hollow](#): > > First off, as a 'Skins fan I initially felt the need to vomit after hearing the trade. But then I remembered how little joy this team has brought me for the last decade or so. I’m not jumping off any building if it turns out to be a bad trade. Ah the joy of lowered expectations. Maybe Snyder is onto something. > [@Hippy Hollow](#): > > Realistically, the 'Skins are giving up two first-rounders and a second-rounder. They swapped slots with the Rams for 2012. So it’s not so horrific-sounding as the OP wrote (not a dig, this is how everybody is talking about it, basically). Well, if you ignore the switching slots, then the Skins are simply giving up 2 first rounders and a second rounder for … nothing. As it is, they gave up 2 first rounders and a second rounder to … move up 4 stinking spots. > [@Hippy Hollow](#): > > The Redskins have been absolutely shit at QB since Jay Schroeder. There have been some hints of success (Trent Green, Gus Frerotte, Jeff Hostetler) but much more disaster (Shuler, Banks, George, Matthews, Wuerfel, Ramsey, Campbell, McNabb, Beck, Grossman… these are just the sacks I can remember). Shuler was a bust, true, but he’s the last franchise-looking QB to show up in Redskins Park. I guess you could argue Campbell, as a late first-rounder, but I don’t think anyone thought he would turn the direction of the franchise. Ah the joy of desperation. > [@Hippy Hollow](#): > > It’s a gamble, yes. But a franchise QB is absolutely worth it. An elite franchise QB is definitely worth it. An average franchise QB, say like Alex Smith, Jay Cutler, or Kevin Kolb … not so much. And what you’re paying for isn’t an elite franchise QB, you’re paying for the chance to draft a guy who “might” become an elite franchise QB. > [@Hippy Hollow](#): > > The question is, is RGIII that guy? I don’t know. Nobody does. > [@Hippy Hollow](#): > > Kyle Shanahan _cough_ Nepotism _cough_. > [@Hippy Hollow](#): > > The rookie cap rules means that the $40 million Washington has under the cap can be spent on impact free agents, like a Vincent Jackson, and some O-line help. I would say the remainder of the draft should be on linemen on both sides of the ball. Quite simply, Washington has had average- to above-average play out of every position in the past decade with the exception of QB, OL, and K. _cough_ Albert Haynesworth _cough_. How many teams have been successful using free agency over drafting and development? Sure adding one or two pieces in free agency can sure help, but losing two years of first round picks and one year of second round pick is going to seriously deplete the future of your team. > [@Hippy Hollow](#): > > Bottom line, if there’s any chance that RGIII could be even a moderate star in this league and a starter for 5-7 years, it’s absolutely worth it. It’s not like the Redskins have had any skill in building through the draft thus far. 🙂 (Excepting Orakpo and Kerrigan.) Who in the current NFL would you trade 3 #1’s and a second rounder for? Rodgers? For sure. Stafford? Maybe. Brady and Brees? If they were younger, yes. But it gets harder when you consider guys like Romo, Cutler, Ryan, Schaub, Alex Smith, Flacco, Sanchez, or others who are good but not elite yet. Would you do it for Cam Newton? Andy Dalton? Blaine Gabbert? Sam Bradford? ---
**Author:** ![Death\_of\_Rats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a6a055/32.png) [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skins-reportedly-give-up-3-1st-rd-1-2nd-rd-picks-for-2-this-year-thoughts/615362/42 "2012-03-12T15:02:45Z")
> [@Hippy\_Hollow](#): > > The rookie cap rules means that the $40 million Washington has under the cap can be spent on impact free agents, like a Vincent Jackson, and some O-line help. I would say the remainder of the draft should be on linemen on both sides of the ball. Quite simply, Washington has had average- to above-average play out of every position in the past decade with the exception of QB, OL, and K. Now the rumour mill is starting to gain buzz that the 'Skins are planning to offer a big chunk of the $40 mil to get Vincent Jackson to move cross country to pair with RGIII. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skins-reportedly-give-up-3-1st-rd-1-2nd-rd-picks-for-2-this-year-thoughts/615362/43 "2012-03-12T15:22:22Z")
> [@Death\_of\_Rats](#): > > Now the rumour mill is starting to gain buzz that the 'Skins are planning to offer a big chunk of the $40 mil to get Vincent Jackson to move cross country to pair with RGIII. I so want to be in a fantasy football league with Dan Snyder. ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skins-reportedly-give-up-3-1st-rd-1-2nd-rd-picks-for-2-this-year-thoughts/615362/44 "2012-03-12T16:03:05Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Ah the joy of desperation. Ah, the joy of snark. Winning in the NFL is hard, and it’s pretty evident that Washington has not had the signal caller they’ve desired for a long, long time. Campbell was ruined by the upheaval of OCs and schemes every year he was there, but you have Shuler, Ramsey and him as the experiments at QB that failed. So the Shanahans, as well as Bruce Allen and yes, the owner, think RGIII’s the guy. I understand that Shanny thought the price was too high, but as many others have said, there’s no price too high for a franchise QB. Obviously this is a prediction/prognostication game. We don’t know if any QB is going to pan out, nobody does. The front office did their homework and decided that RGIII was worth the risk. We’ll see. But to hail this as the worst trade/best trade ever is ridiculous at this point. We don’t know, and we won’t know for some time. The downside of course is that there’s the pressure on RGIII. Redskins fans (like most NFL fans) are not known for their keen use of logic. A few bad games and the knives will come out. But I do think there is a glimmer of understanding in that this happens way early, nobody is expecting miracles overnight in DC, and the Redskins have a good number of picks in this draft and the next. They went into 2011 with 7 picks and got 12, and got the players they wanted (all 12 are still in the organization). Shanny/Allen is much better at working the draft than past administrations. Furthermore, RGIII passes the Good Guy/Smart Guy test. He might not pan out, but from what we know, it won’t be because of character defects or laziness. Again, doesn’t mean shit until he takes the field. But the washout QBs tend to have some indication that they might not work out. RGIII doesn’t come with that baggage. I’m not going to defend Kyle Shanahan to the death, but he’s not the only son of a coach to have ever benefited from the connection. He did well as OC for the Texans, it’s not like he just showed up at Redskins Park with no resume. Haynesworth was possibly the worse FA signing in recent memory. But Shanny didn’t sign off on the signing as he wasn’t the HC then. To his credit, the front office somehow convinced Belichick that this POS was worth a 5th round pick. The bottom line is, if you want RGIII, this is the trade you have to make. He will be gone by Cleveland’s pick, so if they wanted the player, this is what they had to do. Truthfully, the jury is still out on all the players you’ve mentioned, with perhaps the exception of Rodgers, Brady, and Brees. ---
**Author:** ![Lukeinva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lukeinva/32/17872_2.png) [@Lukeinva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lukeinva)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skins-reportedly-give-up-3-1st-rd-1-2nd-rd-picks-for-2-this-year-thoughts/615362/45 "2012-03-12T16:22:56Z")
The trade did not cost the Redskins three first round picks. They are swapping places with the Rams for one of them. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skins-reportedly-give-up-3-1st-rd-1-2nd-rd-picks-for-2-this-year-thoughts/615362/46 "2012-03-12T16:26:24Z")
> [@Hippy\_Hollow](#): > > But the washout QBs tend to have some indication that they might not work out. I don’t really buy this. Jamarcus Russell was a bust in waiting, and maybe some others, but I remember Tim Couch, Alex Smith and David Carr all being lauded as hardworking and mature beyond their years. Heck, look no further than Heath Shuler: never an attitude, never lazy … just never as good as they thought he’d be. ---
**Author:** ![Lukeinva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lukeinva/32/17872_2.png) [@Lukeinva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lukeinva)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skins-reportedly-give-up-3-1st-rd-1-2nd-rd-picks-for-2-this-year-thoughts/615362/47 "2012-03-12T16:30:40Z")
> [@Cubsfan](#): > > … Is this the biggest trade for smallest movement in draft history? Not even close. Minnesota gave five players and six draft picks to Dallas for [Hershel Walker](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herschel_Walker#Dallas_Cowboys_.28first_stint.29). The Saints traded _all_ of their draft picks in 1999 and their first in 2000 for [Ricky Williams](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Ditka#New_Orleans_Saints). ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skins-reportedly-give-up-3-1st-rd-1-2nd-rd-picks-for-2-this-year-thoughts/615362/48 "2012-03-12T16:33:19Z")
> [@Hippy\_Hollow](#): > > Ah, the joy of snark. I like it. > [@HippyHollow](#): > > Winning in the NFL is hard, and it’s pretty evident that Washington has not had the signal caller they’ve desired for a long, long time. Campbell was ruined by the upheaval of OCs and schemes every year he was there, but you have Shuler, Ramsey and him as the experiments at QB that failed. So the Shanahans, as well as Bruce Allen and yes, the owner, think RGIII’s the guy. I understand that Shanny thought the price was too high, but as many others have said, there’s no price too high for a franchise QB. More appropriately, the Redskins thought that Manning was the guy, but they couldn’t get him. RGIII is the consolation prize that they overpay for. > [@HippyHollow](#): > > Obviously this is a prediction/prognostication game. We don’t know if any QB is going to pan out, nobody does. So why give up so much for one guy? Like **furt** pointed out, use three consecutive first round picks on QB’s and you’ll have a much better chance at finding one. It’s not like there won’t be a QB taken in the top 10 every draft. > [@Hippyhollow](#): > > The front office did their homework and decided that RGIII was worth the risk. We’ll see. But to hail this as the worst trade/best trade ever is ridiculous at this point. We don’t know, and we won’t know for some time. Of course we don’t, but that doesn’t mean we can’t criticize or make an argument either way. But, and this is a big “but”, I think the ONLY way this isn’t a spectacularly bad trade is if RGIII develops into an elite level QB. If he’s average, or even slightly above average, it’s a horrible trade. Huge risk with a slight chance of success doesn’t make good sense to me. Dan Snyder not only put all his eggs, he put all his eggs, chickens, and the fucking coop in one basket. > [@Hippy Hollow](#): > > The downside of course is that there’s the pressure on RGIII. Redskins fans (like most NFL fans) are not known for their keen use of logic. A few bad games and the knives will come out. But I do think there is a glimmer of understanding in that this happens way early, nobody is expecting miracles overnight in DC, and the Redskins have a good number of picks in this draft and the next. They went into 2011 with 7 picks and got 12, and got the players they wanted (all 12 are still in the organization). Shanny/Allen is much better at working the draft than past administrations. Shanny has had two offseasons and two drafts to get a quarterback and has failed. Although, to be honest, I really liked his last draft, I still don’t see Shanny as a QB drafting guru (his only selections I can figure are Matt Mauck and Jay Cutler). > [@Hippy Hollow](#): > > Furthermore, RGIII passes the Good Guy/Smart Guy test. He might not pan out, but from what we know, it won’t be because of character defects or laziness. Again, doesn’t mean shit until he takes the field. But the washout QBs tend to have some indication that they might not work out. RGIII doesn’t come with that baggage. Don’t get me wrong, I really like RGIII. I think he’ll be a fine NFL QB, maybe even break the top 10 in a couple years, with a chance to be elite. He’s got outstanding physical skills, the leadership skills, the background NFL guys just love, a seemingly solid character, and some nice college production. What’s not to love (other than his size)? But unless he does become elite, the trade won’t be worth it. And in a Gift of the Magi twist, not having a second round pick this year and no first round pick in the next two years after that makes it even harder for RGIII to become elite. > [@Hippy Hollow](#): > > The bottom line is, if you want RGIII, this is the trade you have to make. Yes, which is one reason it’s bad GM’ing to go into the draft with a “must have” guy, because you make dumb trades like this one. > [@Hippy Hollow](#): > > Truthfully, the jury is still out on all the players you’ve mentioned, with perhaps the exception of Rodgers, Brady, and Brees. That’s my point. The jury is even further out for RGIII. Would you give up three first rounders and a second rounder for Cam Newton, who had a pretty good rookie year? How about for Andy Dalton? Sam Bradford? Or even go bigger. Jay Cutler? Tony Romo? Matt Stafford? Where is the line where a guy you “must have” gets too expensive for you? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skins-reportedly-give-up-3-1st-rd-1-2nd-rd-picks-for-2-this-year-thoughts/615362/49 "2012-03-12T16:40:09Z")
With all the buzz this trade has created around RGIII, it’ll be interesting to see whether any talk develops about the Colts picking him first and letting Luck go to Washington. I can’t really imagine it happening, but something has to fill all those hours of sports radio. ---
**Author:** ![Lukeinva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lukeinva/32/17872_2.png) [@Lukeinva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lukeinva)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skins-reportedly-give-up-3-1st-rd-1-2nd-rd-picks-for-2-this-year-thoughts/615362/50 "2012-03-12T16:40:29Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > …Would you give up three first rounders… You do understand that your math is off don’t you? The Skins are only giving up _two_ first rounders, 2013 and 2014. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skins-reportedly-give-up-3-1st-rd-1-2nd-rd-picks-for-2-this-year-thoughts/615362/51 "2012-03-12T16:42:33Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > With all the buzz this trade has created around RGIII, it’ll be interesting to see whether any talk develops about the Colts picking him first and letting Luck go to Washington. I can’t really imagine it happening, but something has to fill all those hours of sports radio. People have wondered if maybe Griffin could go first, but the Colts seem to have decided on Luck a long time ago. ---
**Author:** ![butcherer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/db5fbb/32.png) [@butcherer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/butcherer)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skins-reportedly-give-up-3-1st-rd-1-2nd-rd-picks-for-2-this-year-thoughts/615362/52 "2012-03-12T16:43:37Z")
Herschel Walker, anyone? ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skins-reportedly-give-up-3-1st-rd-1-2nd-rd-picks-for-2-this-year-thoughts/615362/53 "2012-03-12T16:43:47Z")
> [@Lukeinva](#): > > The trade did not cost the Redskins three first round picks. They are swapping places with the Rams for one of them. No, but the #2 pick did cost them three first round picks and a second. ---
**Author:** ![Lukeinva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lukeinva/32/17872_2.png) [@Lukeinva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lukeinva)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skins-reportedly-give-up-3-1st-rd-1-2nd-rd-picks-for-2-this-year-thoughts/615362/54 "2012-03-12T16:48:21Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > No, but the #2 pick did cost them three first round picks and a second. How does that _cost_ them three 1st round picks when they are getting a 1st round pick in return? The cost is two 1st round picks and one 2nd. [As posted on the Redskins chat boards (paraphrased): if I give you $3.50 and you give me back $1 how much did I give you?] ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skins-reportedly-give-up-3-1st-rd-1-2nd-rd-picks-for-2-this-year-thoughts/615362/55 "2012-03-12T16:50:07Z")
> [@Lukeinva](#): > > [As posted on the Redskins chat boards (paraphrased): if I give you $3.50 and you give me back $1 how much did I give you?] About [tree fiddy.](http://www.angelfire.com/mi4/crescentfresh/treefiddy.gif) ---
**Author:** ![butcherer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/db5fbb/32.png) [@butcherer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/butcherer)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skins-reportedly-give-up-3-1st-rd-1-2nd-rd-picks-for-2-this-year-thoughts/615362/56 "2012-03-12T16:52:45Z")
> [@butcherer](#): > > Herschel Walker, anyone? Sorry, Jim’s Son, et al . Jumped in there without reading all the posts. From Dallas, this is delicious news indeed!!! ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skins-reportedly-give-up-3-1st-rd-1-2nd-rd-picks-for-2-this-year-thoughts/615362/57 "2012-03-12T16:57:21Z")
> [@Lukeinva](#): > > How does that _cost_ them three 1st round picks when they are getting a 1st round pick in return? > > The cost is two 1st round picks and one 2nd. > > [As posted on the Redskins chat boards (paraphrased): if I give you $3.50 and you give me back $1 how much did I give you?] You gave me $3.50, I netted $2.50. The Redskins gave up three first rounders and a second round pick in order to get the #2 pick, which happens to be a first round pick. If they traded for RG3 a la Eli Manning, they would have traded three first round picks and a second for him, not two first rounders and a second. Alternatively, one could also be correct in saying that the 'skins paid two first rounders and a second to swap places this year. Both are perfectly correct ways to say the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Lukeinva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lukeinva/32/17872_2.png) [@Lukeinva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lukeinva)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skins-reportedly-give-up-3-1st-rd-1-2nd-rd-picks-for-2-this-year-thoughts/615362/58 "2012-03-12T17:00:33Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > You gave me $3.50, I netted $2.50. > > The Redskins gave up three first rounders and a second round pick in order to get the #2 pick, which happens to be a first round pick. If they traded for RG3 a la Eli Manning, they would have traded three first round picks and a second for him, not two first rounders and a second. > > Alternatively, one could also be correct in saying that **the 'skins paid two first rounders and a second to swap places this year**. Both are perfectly correct ways to say the same thing. Concur. (My bold.) ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skins-reportedly-give-up-3-1st-rd-1-2nd-rd-picks-for-2-this-year-thoughts/615362/59 "2012-03-12T17:27:20Z")
> [@Lukeinva](#): > > You do understand that your math is off don’t you? The Skins are only giving up _two_ first rounders, 2013 and 2014. Intriguing “math”. The Rams have RGIII with the #2 pick. The Redskins want to get RGIII. To get RGIII, the Redskins have to give the Rams 3 first round draft picks and a second rounder. So they do. The price to get RGIII is 3 first round draft picks and a second rounder. 2 first round draft picks and a second rounder go to the Rams. One first round draft pick goes to the NFL for RGIII. The total price (which was precisely what I was talking about with the part of my quote you snipped, was for QB’s already in the NFL) is 3 first round draft picks and a second. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2012, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skins-reportedly-give-up-3-1st-rd-1-2nd-rd-picks-for-2-this-year-thoughts/615362/60 "2012-03-12T17:29:14Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Would you do it for […] Andy Dalton? I would do _anything_ for my Ginger Jesus, including going all Abraham on my first born son. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skins-reportedly-give-up-3-1st-rd-1-2nd-rd-picks-for-2-this-year-thoughts/615362.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skins-reportedly-give-up-3-1st-rd-1-2nd-rd-picks-for-2-this-year-thoughts/615362.md?page=4)