# Skyfall for those who've seen it - open spoilers **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 27, 2012, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyfall-for-those-whove-seen-it-open-spoilers/639018 "2012-10-27T06:14:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2012, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyfall-for-those-whove-seen-it-open-spoilers/639018/201 "2012-12-01T06:51:03Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Yea, even in the books the amount of actual spying Bond does is pretty small. I read a few of them a year or so ago, and was amused by how fast the bad-guys figure out who Bond is in most of them. > > He’s really kinda terrible at his job. The Double O Directorate is based upon a real organisation, [No 30 Assualt Unit](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._30_Commando) which was organised by Ian Fleming during WW2. They were NOT spies in the traditional sense. They were a mix of special operations and paramilitary types and their missions reflected that. Bond, who is a Naval Officer is basically the SIS’s armed force not an intelligence gatherer. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyfall-for-those-whove-seen-it-open-spoilers/639018/202 "2012-12-31T16:52:24Z")
I watched the movie over the weekend. Most of my observations have been made. Overall I did enjoy the movie. Same concerns over Silva’s complicated plan, and the stupid moves in a couple places, like Q plugging the computer into the network. That just isn’t done. You plug it in to a dedicated isolated system where you can dissect it, but any trojans or whatever are isolated and cannot get to your system. I was a little annoyed that Eve didn’t take the second shot. Oops, well plug the guy now that you have a clean shot. The final confrontation was a bit much. The helicopter being taken out by the propane bottles - yeah. And the gamekeeper and the chief spy using the flashlight, which got spotted. Uh-huh. I was surprised with Eve being Moneypenny. Did kinda anticipate Ralph Fiennes being the next M. > [@magnusblitz](#): > > This is the part I’m complaining about his plan being too far-fetched. As far as I can tell, the hitman being captured isn’t an “in case of” - it was actually part of the villain’s plan to have the hitman followed. (Note that we never find out who he kills - it’s just a setup for Bond to follow him). His whole plan of “knowing someone would capture him” hinges on the events of Bond following him and surviving everything _exactly_ as they actually happened. I don’t agree. Silva expected M to send someone after him, probably several someones. Doesn’t have to be Bond, but someone. I don’t think the hit was intentionally to draw out the agent, I think it just happened to be the way Bond found his way in. When Bond killed the assassin, Severine saw it. So that’s why Silva knew to expect someone to show up at the casino. But he didn’t know who until later. > [@simster](#): > > The other biggest ‘far fetched’ notion is relying on Q to plugin the damn laptop to the MI6 network directly. Agreed. > [@](#): > > as for Bond allowing the hit to take place - I think he simply needed the timing to get thru all the glass doors - I’m sure he would have preffered the other person not die, but that was not his mission. Bond didn’t seem concerned about the hit. He didn’t stop the hitman from killing the guard at the desk, he waited to follow. He wanted to confront and question the assassin, not just kill him, so that’s why he had to creep up through the layers of doors. And about that building, what was with all those doors? Seriously, does that design make any sense? It’s not a good layout for offices, and everything was empty. 😕 > [@](#): > > What I found the oddest about that scene was after the other person was shot - the dark haired girl simply watched Bond from the far window, while the dead person was unceremoniously dragged out (of course, she could have been admiring the fact that someone was trying to catch the killer and he could have been drug out from where he got shot in an effort to get him away from more danger to try and save him - but the scene just ‘looks odd’ in my memory at this point.) As mentioned, that was Severine. She and all the men with her were Silva’s men, they knew the assassin was there, that was a staged hit. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Yeah. The feeling I walked out of the theater with was that they had done a 2.5-hour transition from the more serious, modern take on Bond in the previous Daniel Craig movies to a promised revival of the pre-Craig Bond style. > > “Are you ready to get back to work, Mr. Bond? [Corny quips, extravagantly crazy villains, no more major female characters unless they’re young and hot?]” “Yes, sir.” If that’s the direction they go, I’ll likely lose interest again. I want the gritty Bond, not the comic book cheese. > [@DSeid](#): > > Not so sure. First, as noted, he sneaks naked into the shower with a woman he knows is a sex slave abused sexually since childhood. Then after having promised to save her he really does not try too hard. Yeah, it really didn’t feel like he tried to hard to save her. I mean, he did miss with the pistol, so at least he didn’t shoot her himself, but he kinda just left her to Silva. That annoyed me. > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > The death of Bond at the start and the obit struck me as a fiction M and her assistant knew in full, they printed the obit and sold the stuff to be convincing to people who might still want to look him up. I disagree. They thought him dead, they assumed him dead. They proceeded as if he were dead. > [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Bond had another chance to shoot Silva, during the chase through the underground. Silva was climbing that ladder, Bond had a clear shot, and he said something like “the next one won’t miss.” Then Silva triggered an explosion and escaped. As a wise man once said, “when it’s time to shoot, shoot. Don’t talk.” Yes. > [@Colophon](#): > > My “why didn’t he shoot him then?” moment was when he went into the skyscraper in Shanghai trailing the assassin. He had a clear shot at the guy’s back for several seconds while he was getting into the lift. The point wasn’t to kill the assassin, but to question him. Dropping him off the building was an accident, he was frustrated because that was his only lead to Silva. Fortunately he found the casino chip, which gave him another lead. > [@](#): > > I have to say that the ending of the film came as a bit of a shock, as M seemed to have forgotten all about being injured when she was talking to Silva at the end. Then Bond turns up and she suddenly pegs out. Was this deliberate, or just bad acting on Dench’s part? (Surely not!) Stiff upper lip, and all that, Cheerio. > [@John\_Bredin](#): > > Blow M up at her desk? She’s dead but with reputation relatively intact. IMHO, Silva wanted to utterly ruin M’s reputation first. Thus, the key elements of his plan were (1) prominently attack MI6 headquarters, (2) allow the embarrasing Parliamentary inquiry, with “resignation” waiting in the wings, to proceed, which it likely wouldn’t if M was dead (3) attack MI6’s new hidden headquarters, (4) escape same and evade MI6’s best and brightest in the heart of London, where MI6 would have the strongest police & military backup, and (5) _ **now** _ kill M in the most embarrasing way possible: in front of the Parliamentary committee. Well stated. Silva didn’t just want to kill her, he wanted to humiliate her and destroy her reputation, then kill her. He wanted to show his power and her impotence. Thus the strike to the heart of MI6, by using her computer. Thus the taunting messages while revealing the identities from the list slowly over time, and not selling them piecemeal or in bulk to the enemies. The capture and return to MI6 was a means to have his confrontation with M. And escaping from within when they think they have won, once more showing them up. > [@Colophon](#): > > But hey, it’s a chase sequence on top of a moving train - it’s not meant to be realistic. The same goes for the motorbike chase across the rooftops - did anyone else find it jarringly obvious how a [smooth](http://img.eatsleepride.com/content/list/10669.JPG) paved [strip](http://www.iamabiker.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Bond-Skyfall-motorcycle-chase-scene.jpg) had been laid along the route the bikes were following? That wasn’t created for this movie, that is the rooftops of the grand bizarre in Istanbul. It’s been in other movies. Here’s a scene from “The International”. > **[Double O Section](http://doubleosection.blogspot.com/2009_02_01_archive.html)** > > Double O Section is a blog for news and reviews of all things espionage–-movies, books, comics, TV shows, DVDs, and everything else. (may have to scroll down a ways) > [@Nunzio\_Tavulari](#): > > It’s mentioned that both his parents were killed and that orphans make the best agents. They didn’t touch on who/what killed them. I felt it was implied that MI6 had done it and it was another of M’s betrayals, but the premise wasn’t followed. Why would MI6 go around killing people to manufacture orphans so they can craft them into superagents? Wouldn’t it be more efficient to recruit orphans that already exist? > [@](#): > > The fact that his father was named Andrew ruled out the possibility that Connery could be lured back for a flashback cameo as James Sr. This isn’t “James Jr following in his daddie’s footsteps”, this is a reboot Bond. Connery and Moore and Dalton and Brosnan and the other guy don’t exist to this Bond. > [@](#): > > When the first set of bad guys arrives on the Moors and they walk past “the Bond car”. Were you also thinking “there’s machine guns in the front of that thing, I wonder if James has a remote control?” He didn’t, but they telegraphed what should have been a surprise. I had forgotten about the guns. I was wondering why he would park his nice car so close to the obvious firefight, letting them use it for cover. But then I didn’t expect him to let them walk right up to the front doors. > [@Clark\_K](#): > > All this talk of plotholes and mistakes, and no one has mentioned Kincade talking about a hunting rifle but handing Bond a shotgun? I also thought it was a shotgun, glad to know they didn’t screw that up. > [@DSeid](#): > > Him actually being of upper social class and having learned to act the thug is much less appealing. Hard to mesh this story with the one from “Casino Royale”, where he was described as not coming from money, and not fully comfortable in the clothes. Learned to look the part but not really part of that crowd. I guess if his parents had lost most of the money and were middle class rather than upper class, that could explain his background. > [@Folacin](#): > > I’m probably just a sap, but I was thinking they were setting up M to retire with Kincaide. Looked that way to me. I also thought nightfall was a tad quick. And that moor was awfully deep. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyfall-for-those-whove-seen-it-open-spoilers/639018/203 "2012-12-31T17:54:53Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > That wasn’t created for this movie, that is the rooftops of the grand bizarre in Istanbul. . Bazaar. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyfall-for-those-whove-seen-it-open-spoilers/639018/204 "2012-12-31T18:15:33Z")
Bah! ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyfall-for-those-whove-seen-it-open-spoilers/639018/205 "2012-12-31T18:41:28Z")
[QUOTE=Irishman] Hard to mesh this story with the one from “Casino Royale”, where he was described as not coming from money, and not fully comfortable in the clothes. Learned to look the part but not really part of that crowd. I guess if his parents had lost most of the money and were middle class rather than upper class, that could explain his background. . [/QUOTE] Where is it said in Casino Royale that he was not from money. The only thing mentioned is that he is an orphan. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyfall-for-those-whove-seen-it-open-spoilers/639018/206 "2012-12-31T18:48:15Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Where is it said in Casino Royale that he was not from money. The only thing mentioned is that he is an orphan. “By the cut of your suit, you went to Oxford or wherever. Naturally you think human beings dress like that. But you wear it with such disdain, my guess is you didn’t come from money, and your school friends never let you forget it. Which means that you were at that school by the grace of someone else’s charity: hence that chip on your shoulder.” ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyfall-for-those-whove-seen-it-open-spoilers/639018/207 "2012-12-31T19:35:48Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > “By the cut of your suit, you went to Oxford or wherever. Naturally you think human beings dress like that. But you wear it with such disdain, my guess is you didn’t come from money, and your school friends never let you forget it. Which means that you were at that school by the grace of someone else’s charity: hence that chip on your shoulder.” Well, that was Vesper’s read of Bond, not neccisarily fact - he did not dispute it, but that does not make it so. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyfall-for-those-whove-seen-it-open-spoilers/639018/208 "2012-12-31T20:27:10Z")
> [@simster](#): > > Well, that was Vesper’s read of Bond, not neccisarily fact - he did not dispute it, but that does not make it so. I thought it was strongly implied that her comments hit the mark–or rather, skewered it. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyfall-for-those-whove-seen-it-open-spoilers/639018/209 "2012-12-31T20:48:04Z")
> [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](#): > > I thought it was strongly implied that her comments hit the mark–or rather, skewered it. It is strongly implied thusly, but not confirmed - Bond may simply have been playing along with her as well. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyfall-for-those-whove-seen-it-open-spoilers/639018/210 "2012-12-31T22:13:14Z")
They were both deadly accurate. He was trying to show her up, he wouldn’t have let a gross error by like that. ---
**Author:** ![Nunzio\_Tavulari](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Nunzio\_Tavulari](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nunzio_Tavulari)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyfall-for-those-whove-seen-it-open-spoilers/639018/211 "2012-12-31T22:25:55Z")
I think the majority opinion is that Daniel Craig is right for the part. I was disappointed in Brosnan. I thought he was right for the part but the chemistry never happened. I believe the majority also feel that the franchise desperately needs new writers. Casino Royale was very good but it may be that we were so enamored with the new guy that we gave them a lot of leeway. I haven’t seen Quantum Of Solace but few of these comments speak positively of it. This movie was enjoyable, but as the thread shows, there were some issues with the story. Megalomaniac villains seem to be required in action movies of this type, but the early Bond films didn’t take things to extremes. I feel that Silva’s exploits were a bit over the top but not as bad as earlier films. I’d prefer fewer flights of fancy as it pertains to technological genius and anticipation of the enemy’s next move. I like the Bond gadgets and I haven’t seen enough of them in the Craig films. But again, let’s take it back to the early days when it was just a pen with a tracking device instead of an i-phone that turns into a helicopter. This has truly been a reboot that works but if the next picture is as weak as Quantum, or addled as Skyfall, they’ll lose the whole thing. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2012, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyfall-for-those-whove-seen-it-open-spoilers/639018/212 "2012-12-31T23:39:22Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > They were both deadly accurate. He was trying to show her up, he wouldn’t have let a gross error by like that. Except that he would know her error - and she would not - therefore he wins. She only thinks she does. He clearly cannot take the wine that is in front of her. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2013, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyfall-for-those-whove-seen-it-open-spoilers/639018/213 "2013-01-01T03:40:20Z")
> [@Nunzio\_Tavulari](#): > > Megalomaniac villains seem to be required in action movies of this type, but the early Bond films didn’t take things to extremes. I feel that Silva’s exploits were a bit over the top but not as bad as earlier films. I’d prefer fewer flights of fancy as it pertains to technological genius and anticipation of the enemy’s next move. I like the Bond gadgets and I haven’t seen enough of them in the Craig films. But again, let’s take it back to the early days when it was just a pen with a tracking device instead of an i-phone that turns into a helicopter. The problem is that megalomaniacal villains with hollowed-out volcano lairs etc are now only acceptable as subjects of parody (cf _Austin Powers_). It’s actually hard to come up with a Bond Villain who can only be taken down by James Bond’s talents and not someone like a Evil Mastermind who (from the audience’s view) can easily be neutralised via a good, old-fashioned carpet bombing, missile strike, or random military/police marksman with a sniper’s rifle. And you have to be careful about the nationality/political affiliation/etc of your Bond Villain, so you don’t offend anyone. Given the difficulties in coming up with a plausible (within the context of Bond Movies) villain, I think the current Bond films are doing pretty well at coming up with villains whom a modern James Bond might actually be called in to deal with - even if there’s still a bit of “Look, it’s a Bond film, OK?” leeway involved. ---
**Author:** ![coolbyrne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bc79bd/32.png) [@coolbyrne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coolbyrne)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2013, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyfall-for-those-whove-seen-it-open-spoilers/639018/214 "2013-01-01T16:47:38Z")
First Bond movie to hit the billion dollar box office mark. $37 million more needed to beat “Thunderball” (inflation adjusted, of course), with China still to open the movie (Jan. 21st). Not sure even the most die hard fan- of which I’m one- would have predicted those kinds of numbers. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2013, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyfall-for-those-whove-seen-it-open-spoilers/639018/215 "2013-01-02T01:32:01Z")
I sure didn’t. _Casino Royale_ is still a much better film IMHO. > [@Irishman](#): > > …And that moor was awfully deep. In Ohio, we call that a “lake.” ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2013, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyfall-for-those-whove-seen-it-open-spoilers/639018/216 "2013-01-02T10:06:55Z")
Thanks for the info on the roofs, **Irishman**. I knew it was the Grand Bazaar but didn’t know that “pavement” was a feature. Do people walk around up there? ---
**Author:** ![And\_his\_buzzer\_goes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/and_his_buzzer_goes/32/377_2.png) [@And\_his\_buzzer\_goes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/And_his_buzzer_goes)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2013, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyfall-for-those-whove-seen-it-open-spoilers/639018/217 "2013-01-02T12:24:47Z")
The whole final battle scene feels weird. It seems that they threw a lot of stuff together without smoothing it out. One of the things I’ve not seen mentioned is the business with the helicopter. So they have a great badass attack chopper, but they wait to deploy it until the first wave has been killed. And when they get there, they get out! and start shooting with their puny handguns throwing firebombs ? Surely it would come with some nice complementary rockets to flatten the whole house ? They can go through the rubble later to see if they got their man/woman. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2013, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyfall-for-those-whove-seen-it-open-spoilers/639018/218 "2013-01-02T13:02:37Z")
It was not an attack chopper. It looked like a utility helicopter like the Blackhawk or the Mi17. Armed with Gatling or machine guns yes, but not Euromissile HOT or MILAN to do a number on The house. ---
**Author:** ![And\_his\_buzzer\_goes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/and_his_buzzer_goes/32/377_2.png) [@And\_his\_buzzer\_goes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/And_his_buzzer_goes)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2013, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyfall-for-those-whove-seen-it-open-spoilers/639018/219 "2013-01-02T14:06:06Z")
Then I was whooshed, much like the shotgun/huntingrifle debate. Thanks for the info. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2013, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyfall-for-those-whove-seen-it-open-spoilers/639018/220 "2013-01-02T16:35:33Z")
The point still stands though seeing as how it was “attack” enough for the enemy they were engaged with. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyfall-for-those-whove-seen-it-open-spoilers/639018.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyfall-for-those-whove-seen-it-open-spoilers/639018.md?page=12)