# Skyrim: The Paarthurnax Dilemma (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [August 5, 2013, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyrim-the-paarthurnax-dilemma-open-spoilers/665439 "2013-08-05T21:26:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyrim-the-paarthurnax-dilemma-open-spoilers/665439/1 "2013-08-05T21:26:46Z")
Mouseover space for open spoilers in the main quest. I know we’ve an extensive thread on Skyrim, but I want to get opinions on a specific moral part of it rather than a broad over view of the game itself. After a certain point in the main quest you learn that Paarthurnax, the leader of the Greybeards, is in fact an ancient dragon. Your other mentors, the Blades, are adamant that you should kill him. As Dragonborn, you are the only one able to do so as you can absorb his soul. Is it right to kill him or let him live? The Blades consider themselves the Tamriel equivalent of Mossad, Paarthurnax as their Eichmann. He was Alduin’s second in command during the reign of dragons over men. Esbern, a master of draconic lore, states that he is responsible for countless atrocities against the mortal races during ancient times. They fear that this is their only chance to stop him planning atrocities in the future. His name means “Ambition Overlord/Tyranny Cruelty”. Compare Alduin; “Destroyer Devourer Master” or Dovahkiin “Born Hunter of Wyrms”. The Greybeards revere Paarthurnax for turning the tide in the Dragon War. He betrayed Alduin and taught Shouts to Nordic heroes you meet in the main quest. He also founded their order based on the philosophy of The Way of The Voice; a pacifist philosophy that teaches Shouts should be used for peace not war. Privately he founded it as a way to suppress his natural urge to dominate. You can tell Paarthurnax the Blades want him dead; to which he will reply “The Blades are wise not to trust me. … I would not trust another dovah. We were made to dominate… You feel it in yourself, do you not? I can be trusted. I know this. …What is better - to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?” What would you do in Dovahkiin’s place? Slay Paarthunax or let him live? ---
**Author:** ![Arrogance\_Ex\_Machina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/arrogance_ex_machina/32/192_2.png) [@Arrogance\_Ex\_Machina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arrogance_Ex_Machina)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyrim-the-paarthurnax-dilemma-open-spoilers/665439/2 "2013-08-05T21:35:13Z")
I always spare him - he is nothing but helpful during all of your conversations and the Blades are being a dick about the whole thing which didn’t help their case in my eyes. The way I see it his help is his redemption. He has seen Alduin’s evil and turned against him and killing Paarthurnax now would be both pointless and evil. All I know he might even be a tempering influence to the rest of the dragons after Alduin is dead. Through all of the interactions with the two factions, the Blades always come out as fairly fanatical and bitter while the Greybeards seem mellow and wise. Maybe they are just good at acting but that’s the impression I got and that’s what I went with when I decided what to do. Don’t much care for fanatics. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyrim-the-paarthurnax-dilemma-open-spoilers/665439/3 "2013-08-05T21:35:15Z")
I always spared him. If he’s no longer being a mindless killer, there’s no reason for me to be one. If the Blades want him dead, they can do it themselves. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyrim-the-paarthurnax-dilemma-open-spoilers/665439/4 "2013-08-05T21:43:30Z")
I spare him. It is kind of hard to say no to Max Von Sydow though. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyrim-the-paarthurnax-dilemma-open-spoilers/665439/5 "2013-08-05T22:07:03Z")
I just picture him as Ming the Merciless and it’s a bit easier. Joan Allen, now, she’s more of a problem. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyrim-the-paarthurnax-dilemma-open-spoilers/665439/6 "2013-08-06T00:01:39Z")
They’re less Mossad than Irgun/Lehi in this case. There is no dilemma. Fuck the Blades. Do their quests to get recruits and make the potion before the point that they ask you (around _Season Unending_ or so?). It’s really their decision to play “nyah-nyah-nyah, I can’t hear you!” that sways my decision. Otherwise he’s dead, and the Greybeards (rightfully this time, IMHO) won’t talk to you. And it’s not like he just switched sides like Odahviing, or Durnehviir to a lesser extent. He’s been “good” for millennia. There is a mod that resolves this so both good outcomes occur. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyrim-the-paarthurnax-dilemma-open-spoilers/665439/7 "2013-08-06T00:25:20Z")
I spared him as well. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyrim-the-paarthurnax-dilemma-open-spoilers/665439/8 "2013-08-06T02:09:15Z")
I spared him. I played through killing him once (didn’t save), with Lydia as my follower. I made her a blade, and she was _so happy_, gushing “I can’t believe I’m a blade!” Sorry, Lydia. It was all a dream and never really happened. I feel really bad in my game now, when I stop Breezehome, and she’s just sitting there in my room, barefoot, eating a piece of bread. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyrim-the-paarthurnax-dilemma-open-spoilers/665439/9 "2013-08-06T02:15:41Z")
You can still make Blades without killing him. As I said, just do it all before von Sydow corners you and demands justice. I like making Kharjo a blade, otherwise that guy just wanders all over the province. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyrim-the-paarthurnax-dilemma-open-spoilers/665439/10 "2013-08-06T16:56:21Z")
Yeah, I know now, but I didn’t know back at the time. I’d have to start from a really old save (or start a new game). ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyrim-the-paarthurnax-dilemma-open-spoilers/665439/11 "2013-08-06T16:57:02Z")
I kill him in the game, only because it’s one more battle, and hence more fun. If it were real life, I’d probably spare him. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyrim-the-paarthurnax-dilemma-open-spoilers/665439/12 "2013-08-07T00:14:49Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > You can tell Paarthurnax the Blades want him dead; to which he will reply "The Blades are wise not to trust me. … I would not trust another dovah. We were made to dominate… You feel it in yourself, do you not? “I can see your point” says the cannibalistic kleptomaniac vampire/werewolf assassin with weapons and armor forged from the souls of mortals. I don’t think that my various Dovahkiin are _really_ in a position of moral superiority here. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyrim-the-paarthurnax-dilemma-open-spoilers/665439/13 "2013-08-09T05:31:34Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > They’re less Mossad than Irgun/Lehi in this case. > > There is no dilemma. Fuck the Blades. Do their quests to get recruits and make the potion before the point that they ask you (around _Season Unending_ or so?). It’s really their decision to play “nyah-nyah-nyah, I can’t hear you!” that sways my decision. Otherwise he’s dead, and the Greybeards (rightfully this time, IMHO) won’t talk to you. And it’s not like he just switched sides like Odahviing, or Durnehviir to a lesser extent. He’s been “good” for millennia. > > There is a mod that resolves this so both good outcomes occur. [The Paarthurnax Dilemma](http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=75915978)? ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyrim-the-paarthurnax-dilemma-open-spoilers/665439/14 "2013-08-09T06:15:43Z")
That looks like the one. I also had to mod/console command to get the Dragon Infusion potion, but looks like that’s been since fixed by patch. I didn’t install it though. Who are his students who protect him? Arngeir and such, you kill them? I think my earlier WAG was right: it’s after **Season Unending** (the treaty quest), or if you beat the civil war first, around that time. In other words, not post-MQ like the mod suggests. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyrim-the-paarthurnax-dilemma-open-spoilers/665439/15 "2013-08-09T06:57:10Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Who are his students who protect him? Arngeir and such, you kill them? From the description, other dragons. > [@](#): > > Paarthurnax told you he was going to try and teach others the Way of the Voice, and he’ll have his first group of students listening intently. Or, well, whatever dragons do when they’re perched on rocks looking at each other. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyrim-the-paarthurnax-dilemma-open-spoilers/665439/16 "2013-08-09T12:48:46Z")
Downloaded that mod myself as I was sick of having the quest forever incomplete in my log. It has your Dragonborn tell the Blades that since Tiber Septim didn’t kill Paathurnax, why should you? Tiber Septim trained with the Greybeards so would surely have known there was an ancient dragon perched atop the Throat of the World. He also used the Blades to recover pieces of the Numidium, so they didn’t give him any crap over it. Seeing as how our Dragonborn saved the entire world from being destroyed and remade and Tiber simply founded an empire, I figure they owe us a little slack. Incidentally if you do kill Paarthurnax and then talk to Arngeir the results are hilarious. "…and for what?! A mindless vendetta urged on you by a cabal of Akaviri barbarians…[We are men of FUS RO DAH"](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOBV32hsKqM) ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyrim-the-paarthurnax-dilemma-open-spoilers/665439/17 "2013-08-09T15:52:44Z")
It was a difficult choice to make, but in the end I killed him. Who is more likely to go on a genocidal killing spree? One who never had the instinct to do so in the first place, or one who did it in the past but has currently sworn off it? 🙂 Make your own choice. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyrim-the-paarthurnax-dilemma-open-spoilers/665439/18 "2013-08-09T19:49:35Z")
Well since you have a dragon soul and the same instincts, the logical thing to do then is to kill Paarthurnax, then kill yourself…probably not a popular plan. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2013, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyrim-the-paarthurnax-dilemma-open-spoilers/665439/19 "2013-08-09T22:46:28Z")
A million good deeds does not make up for what he did. It’s not about justice or vengeance though. It’s just the right thing to do. He deserves to die, but in a sad way. Kind like, “sorry I have to do this old friend, but…” and then stabbed right through the heart. I vote, kill him. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2013, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyrim-the-paarthurnax-dilemma-open-spoilers/665439/20 "2013-08-10T19:43:57Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > The Blades consider themselves the Tamriel equivalent of Mossad, Paarthurnax as their Eichmann. He was Alduin’s second in command during the reign of dragons over men. > […] > The Greybeards revere Paarthurnax for turning the tide in the Dragon War. He betrayed Alduin and taught Shouts to Nordic heroes you meet in the main quest. Your anology doesn’t really work, IMHO; Eichmann didn’t betray and bring down Hitler. The only possible reason to let Paarthurnax live after the atrocities he committed is because at the end of the day, he did betray his master and turned the war around. Eichmann kept killing Jews after the official order was to stop. He deserved what he got; there’s at least some room for debate with Paarthunax. As for Paarthunax… Certainly his betrayal of Alduin deserves consideration; but at the same time, he deserves to be punished. And with a dragon, there aren’t a whole lot of punishments one can enact. You can’t build a prison secure enough to hold him; you can’t exile him, as what would stop him from coming back as soon as the Dragonborn dies of old age? There is only one way to stop him from ever hurting anyone again, and that is death. So Paarthunax, in my opinion, should be slain for his crimes. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyrim-the-paarthurnax-dilemma-open-spoilers/665439.md?page=2)