# Skyscrapers on fire, not collapsing **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 12, 2010, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541 "2010-09-12T22:53:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/181 "2010-09-20T17:21:47Z")
> [@Mozart1220](#): > > > [@Cisco](#): > > > > Please respond to post #153. > > I would but I have no idea what you are going on about, which apparently makes it unanimous. > > Why don’t YOU resond to my post which states that buildings and living creatures are not comparable? Since we’re playing the “why don’t you respond” game, how about this one: > [@JohnT](#): > > > [@Mozart1220](#): > > > > Then we get to the inconvenient fact for YOUR 'little theory" and that is that the vast majority of the jet fuel was eliminated in the intitial explosions. the smoke coming from the towers was black. The fires were barely burning a few minutes after the impacts. > > So… what’s with all the [smoke](http://www.infowars.net/articles/September2008/110908Magnetic.htm)? And the orangey stuff that looks like fire? Note that this picture was taken at the time the first building started to collapse (which was the second building that hit). The first building hit (the second to fall) has smoke billowing out of it and obvious fires. And you are correct - buildings and people are not comparable. But the sub/torpedo analogy brought up earlier is comparable to WTC/airplanes. Please don’t dodge the question(s). ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/182 "2010-09-20T17:23:11Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Is there a single other person who doesn’t understand post #153? Please speak up. If I need to make myself more clear, I will, but I have a feeling Mozart1220 is just dodging the point. Well, do you expect a 200 years dead composer to get the “calvinball” reference? 😃 But yeah, I understood it just fine. I don’t know where he got this idea that anything was ‘unanimous’. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/183 "2010-09-20T17:48:58Z")
Thinking the towers were brought down by bombs instead of airplanes is like thinking JFK wasn’t shot but instead the CIA implanted a tiny device in his brain which they blew up by remote control when Oswald shot because uh, well because. He might miss, I guess. Actually, that’s a lot more credible than the bomb idea. I think the Truthers would be even more popular if they dropped the retarded demolition idea. There’s no evidence that any domestic party was helping the hijackers, but it wouldn’t be too hard to convince credulous people given U.S. history and, hell, the actions of the same administration when they were telling us about how Iraqi officials were buying yellowcake from Niger or they had these mobile weapon labs or they were going to spray the U.S. with bio-weapons using balsa airplanes and all these other great stories. But they were all discovered as forgeries and lies almost instantly, and everyone and their dog wrote a book about it, and there’s miles of internal documents about it. But then you start talking about demolitions and free fall speed and space lasers and teh j00z, well… ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/184 "2010-09-20T17:54:45Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > But then you start talking about demolitions and free fall speed and space lasers and teh j00z, well… Which reminds me that we still don’t know who **Mozart1220** thinks is responsible. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/185 "2010-09-20T18:05:25Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Which reminds me that we still don’t know who **Mozart1220** thinks is responsible. Cui bono indeed. I think if you objectively look at the evidence the person who clearly had the most to gain was none other than…Gary Condit. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/186 "2010-09-20T18:24:31Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > > [@marshmallow](#): > > > > But then you start talking about demolitions and free fall speed and space lasers and teh j00z, well… > > Which reminds me that we still don’t know who **Mozart1220** thinks is responsible. He is here to ask questions, not answer them…or to listen to answers provided, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/187 "2010-09-20T20:54:58Z")
Quoth **xtisme** : > [@](#): > > Personally, if I was going to go with a plausible conspiracy that actually fits the facts, it would be something like this (mind, this isn’t what happened, nor do I THINK it’s what happened): > > A conspiracy to attack the US is perpetrated by some group either in our government or outside of it for reasons unknown, but possibly having to do with some sort of profit (insurance, perhaps, or maybe concerning speculation on the stock market). Actually, there was an unusually large amount of stock market activity like short-selling airline stocks on that date, which presumably would profit from the attacks. I haven’t heard much follow-up, but I would certainly hope that the CIA, FBI, and other government agencies have followed the money trail to the people involved. I’d guess , though, that it’s much more likely to be someone in Al Qaida who decided that since they were attacking us anyway, they might as well make a profit on it, than shadowy Americans who orchestrated the attacks for that purpose. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/188 "2010-09-20T21:00:57Z")
> [@](#): > > Actually, there was an unusually large amount of stock market activity like short-selling airline stocks on that date, which presumably would profit from the attacks. Mr. Market Timer here (moi) had the good sense to buy 200 shares of Boeing on Sept. 1st 2001. So, no matter what the wingnuts try to pin on me, I’m in the clear and have the paper trail to prove it! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/189 "2010-09-20T21:05:01Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Quoth **xtisme** : > > > [@](#): > > > > Personally, if I was going to go with a plausible conspiracy that actually fits the facts, it would be something like this (mind, this isn’t what happened, nor do I THINK it’s what happened): > > > > A conspiracy to attack the US is perpetrated by some group either in our government or outside of it for reasons unknown, but possibly having to do with some sort of profit (insurance, perhaps, or maybe concerning speculation on the stock market). > > Actually, there was an unusually large amount of stock market activity like short-selling airline stocks on that date, which presumably would profit from the attacks. I haven’t heard much follow-up, but I would certainly hope that the CIA, FBI, and other government agencies have followed the money trail to the people involved. I’d guess , though, that it’s much more likely to be someone in Al Qaida who decided that since they were attacking us anyway, they might as well make a profit on it, than shadowy Americans who orchestrated the attacks for that purpose. Is there a link available that shows this to be true(not to be confused with the thousands of links available to cites that _heard_ that it was true)? ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/190 "2010-09-20T21:39:55Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Actually, there was an unusually large amount of stock market activity like short-selling airline stocks on that date, which presumably would profit from the attacks. I haven’t heard much follow-up, but I would certainly hope that the CIA, FBI, and other government agencies have followed the money trail to the people involved. Yes, since stock brokers keep detailed records of trades, the investigators found the traders and came up with nothing suspicious. The 9/11 Commission Report says: "A single U.S.-based institutional investor with no conceivable ties to al Qaeda purchased 95 percent of the UAL puts on September 6 as part of a trading strategy that also included buying 115,000 shares of American on September 10… Similarly, much of the seemingly suspicious trading in American on September 10th was traced to a specific U.S.-based options trading newsletter, faxed to its subscribers on Sunday, September 9, which recommended these trades". ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/191 "2010-09-20T21:48:41Z")
> [@Mozart1220](#): > > > [@Cisco](#): > > > > Please respond to post #153. > > I would but I have no idea what you are going on about, which apparently makes it unanimous. Saying improbable things makes them true? Well at least he’s consistent in his debate tactics. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/192 "2010-09-20T21:59:01Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > "A single U.S.-based institutional investor with no conceivable ties to al Qaeda purchased 95 percent of the UAL puts on September 6 as part of a trading strategy that also included buying 115,000 shares of American on September 10… I’m confused. Wouldn’t UAL and American Airlines stocks be the last thing you would want to purchase on Sept. 10 2001 if you had some knowledge of the coming attacks? Selling them short, yes. But buying them??? 😕😕 ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/193 "2010-09-20T22:01:42Z")
Buying a “put” is basically the same as selling them short, except doing it on margin (IIRC). ETA: So they sold short UAL and then bought American stock. The UAL puts made news, buying AMR stock didn’t. That’s largely because the volume of puts is much smaller than for direct trades so single large trades can be noticeable. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2010, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/194 "2010-09-20T22:04:00Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > > [@CurtC](#): > > > > "A single U.S.-based institutional investor with no conceivable ties to al Qaeda purchased 95 percent of the UAL puts on September 6 as part of a trading strategy that also included buying 115,000 shares of American on September 10… > > I’m confused. Wouldn’t UAL and American Airlines stocks be the last thing you would want to purchase on Sept. 10 2001 if you had some knowledge of the coming attacks? Selling them short, yes. But buying them??? 😕😕 A put _is_ selling short. And the American stock, I believe, is the counter argument to “this guy did this with foreknowledge.” He ate shit on that. ---
**Author:** ![Ibanez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a4c791/32.png) [@Ibanez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibanez)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/195 "2010-09-21T00:26:46Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > He is here to ask questions, not answer them…or to listen to answers provided, apparently. Their minds are already made up, they’re just here to preach **the** message. That’s why they never listen or respond to answers no matter how logical. It’s offensively annoying to be honest. The only thing worse than that day is some loon trying to convience me that it was an inside job. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/196 "2010-09-21T01:29:25Z")
OK, then, that’s probably why I never heard a follow-up. “Somebody was short-selling a lot of United Airlines on that day!” makes for a good news story, but “…But he turned out to not be connected to the plot and lost even more money on American Airlines” doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![cerberus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cerberus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cerberus)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/197 "2010-09-21T01:47:20Z")
The simple answer is that the WTC1/2 floors were like “leaves”, attached at points to the outer structure of the building. The blast knocked the ablative crap off of key structures, and weakened or destroyed a number of the peripheral support points. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/198 "2010-09-21T02:12:03Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > OK, then, that’s probably why I never heard a follow-up. “Somebody was short-selling a lot of United Airlines on that day!” makes for a good news story, but “…But he turned out to not be connected to the plot and lost even more money on American Airlines” doesn’t. There had been short-selling in even larger amounts a few months prior to that but hardly anyone ever mentions those. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/199 "2010-09-21T03:18:59Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > OK, then, that’s probably why I never heard a follow-up. “Somebody was short-selling a lot of United Airlines on that day!” makes for a good news story, but “…But he turned out to not be connected to the plot and lost even more money on American Airlines” doesn’t. And notice that the puts on UAL were placed on September 6. Not even on “that day.” BTW, the Truthers will complain that the FBI didn’t release the names of the people who shorted UAL and AMR, so how do we know the investigation was honest? …And the list of conspirators grows by several dozen anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/200 "2010-09-21T03:32:37Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > And notice that the puts on UAL were placed on September 6. Not even on “that day.” That doesn’t mean anything. Puts are normally placed a few days, or at least a few hours in advance. You want to make sure that they get into the trading system in time. Unlike day trading, these are normally done because you think that the stock price will change over the next few days or weeks, so you order a put to make money from your anticipation of how the stock will move. There is no reason to wait for the specific day you think the price will change, and some reasons not to wait. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541.md?page=11)