# Skyscrapers on fire, not collapsing **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 12, 2010, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541 "2010-09-12T22:53:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/222 "2010-09-21T21:40:42Z")
> [@mozart1220](#): > > > [@czarcasm](#): > > > > i know it is against the rules for truthers to say what they _really_ think to o_u_t_s_i_d_e_r_s, but it’s just you and me here, and i promise not to tell anyone-what do _you_ think happened, and who do you think might be behind it? > > did you read my last post, or are you misdirecting on purpose? If i knew i wouldn’t be asking the questions. And if you could read, you would have noticed that I didn’t ask you what you knew-I asked you for your opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/223 "2010-09-21T21:41:22Z")
> [@Mozart1220](#): > > Did you read my last post, or are you misdirecting on purpose? IF I KNEW I WOULDN’T BE ASKING THE QUESTIONS. He’s not asking what you know. He’s asking what you think. As in what’s your theory. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/224 "2010-09-21T21:41:51Z")
> [@lenco12](#): > > > [@L. G. Butts](#): > > > > Thermitic material? You mean like aluminum and iron oxide? What article is this you speak of? > > I give one human peanut butter. That human lives. I give another human peanut butter. That human suffers a massive allergic reaction and dies. Does this prove that I didn’t really give peanut butter to one of the two subjects? If we accept your premises, the fact that you’ve given both humans peanut butter has been conclusively proven. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/225 "2010-09-21T21:44:22Z")
> [@Mozart1220](#): > > > [@Czarcasm](#): > > > > I know it is against the rules for Truthers to say what they _really_ think to O_U_T_S_I_D_E_R_S, but it’s just you and me here, and I promise not to tell anyone-What do _you_ think happened, and who do you think might be behind it? > > Did you read my last post, or are you misdirecting on purpose? IF I KNEW I WOULDN’T BE ASKING THE QUESTIONS. I read your post. You made a point to insinuate that you think Bush and Larry Silverstien had something to do with it. “Just saying”. Unless you were just throwing non-sequiters out, on the assumption that making random noise would make you look smarter somehow. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/226 "2010-09-21T21:45:13Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > > [@Mozart1220](#): > > > > Did you read my last post, or are you misdirecting on purpose? IF I KNEW I WOULDN’T BE ASKING THE QUESTIONS. > > He’s not asking what you know. He’s asking what you think. As in what’s your theory. And I _dare_ you to tell us that you haven’t formed any opinions on the matter. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/227 "2010-09-21T22:03:27Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > > [@Mozart1220](#): > > > > Did you read my last post, or are you misdirecting on purpose? IF I KNEW I WOULDN’T BE ASKING THE QUESTIONS. > > He’s not asking what you know. He’s asking what you think. As in what’s your theory. Actually, he’s asking him what his \*hypothesis \*is. You need evidence for a theory. ---
**Author:** ![Mozart1220](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Mozart1220](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mozart1220)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/228 "2010-09-21T22:05:46Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > > [@Contrapuntal](#): > > > > He’s not asking what you know. He’s asking what you think. As in what’s your theory. > > And I _dare_ you to tell us that you haven’t formed any opinions on the matter. I think that Silverstien was involved. I do NOT think OBL had much, if anything to do with it. If he had, we’d have gotten him. I DO NOT think our government planned or carried out the “attacks”. I don’t even really think they “allowed” them, though Bush’s reaction in the Florida classroom is curious if not frightening. Like I said. I don’t need to know what the square root of two actually is, to know for certain it ISN’T five. What I am CERTAIN of, is that the government lied to us about what REALLY took place, WHO was responsible and WHY. The explainations just don’t fit the facts. The devil is in the details, just like the Kennedy assasinantion. They got it about 90% covered, and as for the other 10% they just ridicule and shout down anyone who asks questions. They know they have enough people who buy everything they say to help them out. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/229 "2010-09-21T22:06:20Z")
> [@Mozart1220](#): > > > [@Czarcasm](#): > > > > He is here to ask questions, not answer them…or to listen to answers provided, apparently. > > If I knew who was responsible I wouldn’t have to ask the questions. But… we know who was responsible. The hijackers. Al Qaeda. They even took credit, remember? Even when we started bombing the shit out of them, they didn’t say “Yo, man, it wasn’t us! We were just kidding with all that OBL video nonsense!” ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/230 "2010-09-21T22:07:49Z")
> [@Mozart1220](#): > > > [@Czarcasm](#): > > > > And I _dare_ you to tell us that you haven’t formed any opinions on the matter. > > What I am CERTAIN of, is that the government lied to us about what REALLY took place, WHO was responsible and WHY. The explainations just don’t fit the facts. How can you be CERTAIN if you have no proof? 😕 The fact that you’re confused about all this is not proof of anything, other than your confusion. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/231 "2010-09-21T22:09:09Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > > [@Contrapuntal](#): > > > > He’s not asking what you know. He’s asking what you think. As in what’s your theory. > > Actually, he’s asking him what his \*hypothesis \*is. You need evidence for a theory. I guess so, if you want to stick to the scientific definition. I didn’t realize this thread was up for peer review. In common parlance, “what do you think happened?” is pretty much the same as “what’s your theory of what happened?” ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/232 "2010-09-21T22:10:56Z")
Hey, hey. The jab wasn’t aimed at you. ---
**Author:** ![Mozart1220](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Mozart1220](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mozart1220)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/233 "2010-09-21T22:11:57Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > > [@Mozart1220](#): > > > > What I am CERTAIN of, is that the government lied to us about what REALLY took place, WHO was responsible and WHY. The explainations just don’t fit the facts. > > How can you be CERTAIN if you have no proof? 😕 > \*\*\*Because the facts and evidence don’t match the explainations. How many times do I have to say that? \*\*\* > The fact that you’re confused about all this is not proof of anything, other than your confusion. > > \*\*\*Who said I was confused? \*\*\* Again, I don’t have to know every correct answer to know the one I’m being given is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/234 "2010-09-21T22:12:08Z")
> [@Mozart1220](#): > > > [@Czarcasm](#): > > > > And I _dare_ you to tell us that you haven’t formed any opinions on the matter. > > I think that Silverstien was involved. I do NOT think OBL had much, if anything to do with it. If he had, we’d have gotten him. I DO NOT think our government planned or carried out the “attacks”. I don’t even really think they “allowed” them, though Bush’s reaction in the Florida classroom is curious if not frightening. > > Like I said. I don’t need to know what the square root of two actually is, to know for certain it ISN’T five. > What I am CERTAIN of, is that the government lied to us about what REALLY took place, WHO was responsible and WHY. The explainations just don’t fit the facts. > > The devil is in the details, just like the Kennedy assasinantion. They got it about 90% covered, and as for the other 10% they just ridicule and shout down anyone who asks questions. They know they have enough people who buy everything they say to help them out. How do you think Silverstien’s plan worked? Which of the following do you hypothesize were involved/hired/used: 1. muslim hijackers 2. black ops demolition agents 3. airplanes 4. bombs 5. missiles 6. thermite 7. fire 8. gravity 9. other And what do you hypothesize was the purpose of attacking the pentagon, and was there any possibility that the government allowed that attack? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/235 "2010-09-21T22:13:00Z")
[QUOTE=Mozart1220] He had the towers WAY overinsured. He did fine. [/QUOTE] Evidence? Or should we simply take your unsupported word for this? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Mozart1220](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Mozart1220](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mozart1220)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/236 "2010-09-21T22:17:17Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > [QUOTE=Mozart1220] > He had the towers WAY overinsured. He did fine. Evidence? Or should we simply take your unsupported word for this? -XT [/QUOTE] > **[Larry Silverstein](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Silverstein)** > > Larry A. Silverstein (born May 30, 1931) is an American billionaire businessman. Among his real estate projects, he is the developer of the rebuilt World Trade Center complex in Lower Manhattan, New York City, as well as one of New York's tallest residential towers at 30 Park Place, where he owns a home. As of December 2024, he had an estimated net worth of US$1 billion according to Forbes. > Silverstein was born in Brooklyn, and became involved in real estate, together with his father, establ... He got alot less than he wanted or expected. Now let the spin continue… ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/237 "2010-09-21T22:20:20Z")
That shows what he got for insurance…it doesn’t show what his losses were, either capital or recurring. Want to try again? Or do you want to ‘spin’ it such that only black ink counts? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/238 "2010-09-21T22:23:03Z")
> [@Mozart1220](#): > > > [@CurtC](#): > > > > Wait - you think Silverstein made money on the attacks? He lost his ass. Well, I don’t know how much his ass is worth, but he lost billions because of the attacks. > > He had the towers WAY overinsured. He did fine. A maximum insurance payout of $4.5 billion, earmarked toward the $7 billion+ rebuild cost, and continuing to pay $102 million per annum for empty land is “fine”? ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/239 "2010-09-21T22:23:47Z")
> [@Mozart1220](#): > > > [@xtisme](#): > > > > Evidence? Or should we simply take your unsupported word for this? > > > > -XT > > [Larry Silverstein - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Silverstein) > > He got alot less than he wanted or expected. > Now let the spin continue… Where does it say what he expected? Doesn’t every business man try to get as much as they can from an insurance settlement? Where is the evidence in that article that he had the buildings over-insured? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/240 "2010-09-21T22:30:10Z")
It says it here in the linked Wiki: > [@](#): > > Silverstein declared his intent to rebuild, though ran into dispute with his insurers over whether the attacks constituted one or two occurrences. A settlement was reached in 2004, with insurers agreeing to pay out $4.55 billion,[1] which was not as much as Silverstein sought. My emphasis. The trouble with this cite is it shows what his claim was, without giving any details as to what his losses were, both capital and recurring (not to mention rebuild costs). Essentially, Mozart1220 is talking out of his or her ass on this one. $4.55 billion seems like a killing…until you realize what the original buildings cost, what the cleanup and capital losses were, and what the rents were (that aren’t being paid anymore), plus what it would cost to rebuild (which you’d need to do before you start getting those juicy rents again). -XT ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2010, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/241 "2010-09-21T22:33:38Z")
> [@Mozart1220](#): > > > [@JohnT](#): > > > > How can you be CERTAIN if you have no proof? 😕 > > \*\*\*Because the facts and evidence don’t match the explainations. How many times do I have to say that? \*\*\* > > > > The fact that you’re confused about all this is not proof of anything, other than your confusion. > > > > \*\*\*Who said I was confused? \*\*\* > > Again, I don’t have to know every correct answer to know the one I’m being given is wrong. Which “facts and evidence” don’t match what “explanations”? I have linked to pictures which show your “facts” to be patently wrong, ((i.e., “The fires were barely burning a few minutes after the impacts.”, post 103), imho, the sort of mistake one should be embarrased to make), as has other posters re: other “facts” (the tops of the buildings should have slid off the bottom, sort of like an ice cream cone being held by a five year-old) which have been soundly debunked. Now you claim, with no evidence whatsoever, that Silverstein had something to do with this… when asked for evidence, you ignore these requests with some pithy comment that you’re not confused. I beg to differ. You started on one subject (fires) and when you got absolutely no traction on that idea (because anybody who Googles for images of the WTC disaster can immediately see that you’re wrong), you then start with another (the tops should have slid off) and when that is put to rest, you start on a third (Silverstein made billion$), which is a direct contradiction of your statement “If I knew who did it, I wouldn’t have questions.” If you don’t “know” who did it, why are you implicating Silverstein? :rolleyes: ETA: Now it looks as if you are basing all this Silverstein stuff on the fact that he disputes the insurance settlement. Are you serious? Have you never disputed an insurance settlement, or heard of such a thing? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541.md?page=13)