# Skyscrapers on fire, not collapsing **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 12, 2010, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541 "2010-09-12T22:53:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/21 "2010-09-13T02:22:26Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > > [@Czarcasm](#): > > > > Has it actually been long enough to pretend that we haven’t done this many times before? > > Who’s asking anyone to pretend anything? Have you read the other threads on the subject? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/22 "2010-09-13T02:25:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Has it actually been long enough to pretend that we haven’t done this many times before? Well, it looks like Mozart is starting from scratch, as it were, parroting ideas that were tossed around and debunked years ago, and I know it must be tempting to try to put him through the kindergarten of 9/11 reality checks in the hope that he may one day graduate, but I understand and share your weariness. I’m just curious when and if Mozart will address the “pull it” issue. That’s always good for a few laughs. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/23 "2010-09-13T02:28:12Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > > [@Czarcasm](#): > > > > Has it actually been long enough to pretend that we haven’t done this many times before? > > Well, it looks like Mozart is starting from scratch, as it were, parroting ideas that were tossed around and debunked years ago, and I know it must be tempting to try to put him through the kindergarten of 9/11 reality checks in the hope that he may one day graduate, but I understand and share your weariness. > > I’m just curious when and if Mozart will address the “pull it” issue. That’s always good for a few laughs. It is a lot like the types back in 2006 who just saw Loose Change and think they are gonna tell us a thing or two about What Really Happened ™. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/24 "2010-09-13T02:37:30Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > > [@Frylock](#): > > > > Who’s asking anyone to pretend anything? > > Have you read the other threads on the subject? No. I know there are tons of them. I figured it would be more efficient to ask for specific points about the specific questions I had rather than sifting through dozens or hundreds of threads at the rate of one search per five minutes. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/25 "2010-09-13T02:39:58Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > > [@Czarcasm](#): > > > > Have you read the other threads on the subject? > > No. I know there are tons of them. I figured it would be more efficient to ask for specific points about the specific questions I had rather than sifting through dozens or hundreds of threads at the rate of one search per five minutes. I’m not sure what the search delay is, but they dropped it significantly below 5 minutes. And you really should search the old threads. There’s some good stuff in there. ---
**Author:** ![TurboNuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f19dbf/32.png) [@TurboNuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TurboNuke)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/26 "2010-09-13T02:48:48Z")
The structural steel in buildings is usually coated with a fire retardant material. In the 9/11 attacks the impacts of the planes removed some of the fire retardant material resulting in the structural steel getting hot very fast and losing a lot of its strength. IMO, that much jet fuel would’ve caused the towers to eventually collapse in any case. If the fire retardant material remained intact, it might have taken several hours. I’m not an expert btw just my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/27 "2010-09-13T03:20:47Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > > [@Mozart1220](#): > > > > The buildings were designed to withstand airpcraft impacts, and 90% of the jet fuel burned in the initial explaosions. > > > > Even NY firefighters can be heard saying “It was like one of those controlled explosions, you heard pop, pop, pop, as the buildings came down”. > > > > If you watched ANY of the several docs shown yesterday you had to have seen that clip. > > Jesus merciful fuck, when did every uneducated guy on the street become an expert in skyscraper demolitions. :rolleyes: I believe the date in question was 9/12/2001. What I fail to understand is how anyone can watch the videos of the collapse and think that anything except the fire brought those buildings down. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/28 "2010-09-13T03:33:48Z")
> [@Mozart1220](#): > > > [@Chronos](#): > > > > First difference, most of those fires weren’t accelerated by jet fuel. > > > > Second difference, the WTC towers were constructed differently from most skyscrapers. > > > > Third difference, in addition to the fires, the WTC towers were also damaged mechanically by the impacts. > > The buildings were designed to withstand airpcraft impacts, and 90% of the jet fuel burned in the initial explaosions. > > Even NY firefighters can be heard saying “It was like one of those controlled explosions, you heard pop, pop, pop, as the buildings came down”. > > If you watched ANY of the several docs shown yesterday you had to have seen that clip. the popping sound would be the outer wall support beams snapping. The buildings burned long enough for the floor joists to sag. They pulled the outer wall inward until they snapped. They sagged because the thermal insulation was blown off on impact. Unlike the Empire State building, which has a concrete like insulation material, the stuff on the WTC was blown on fluff. In fact, during construction, they switched to a different type of material because of environmental concerns (no idea if that affected adhesion). Had the insulation remained on the joists the buildings would have survived much longer than they did. Initially they thought the floor joist-to-wall bolts failed and the walls bowed out but after examining the wreckage they found the bolts intact. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/29 "2010-09-13T03:38:48Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > What I fail to understand is how anyone can watch the videos of the collapse and think that anything except the fire brought those buildings down. Even the experts were wrong about the initial cause. They saw the videos and thought the walls popped outward when actually they were pulled inward. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/30 "2010-09-13T04:01:32Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > > [@Rick](#): > > > > What I fail to understand is how anyone can watch the videos of the collapse and think that anything except the fire brought those buildings down. > > Even the experts were wrong about the initial cause. They saw the videos and thought the walls popped outward when actually they were pulled inward. The walls inward / outward I understand. What I don’t understand is the thermite/mini nukes/wired for demo/ space ships and what ever else they have come up with. It is obvious from the videos that the point of failure is the floor where the fires started. Yet we get all of these crack pot stories. ---
**Author:** ![Mozart1220](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Mozart1220](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mozart1220)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/31 "2010-09-13T05:57:55Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > > [@Mozart1220](#): > > > > The buildings were designed to withstand airpcraft impacts, and 90% of the jet fuel burned in the initial explaosions. > > > > Even NY firefighters can be heard saying “It was like one of those controlled explosions, you heard pop, pop, pop, as the buildings came down”. > > > > If you watched ANY of the several docs shown yesterday you had to have seen that clip. > > Jesus merciful fuck, when did every uneducated guy on the street become an expert in skyscraper demolitions. :rolleyes: After seeing these buildiings fall STRAIGHT DOWN into their own footprint exactly like controlled demolitions. It doesn’t take an expert to see that the odds of that happening once with buildings of this size are astronomical. Three times suspends belief. And building 7 was never hit by a plane, and was not effected by jet fuel. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/32 "2010-09-13T06:07:41Z")
> [@Mozart1220](#): > > After seeing these buildiings fall STRAIGHT DOWN into their own footprint exactly like controlled demolitions. They didn’t fall straight down into their own footprints. For starters, building 7 - the same building you were just talking about - was hit by debris. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/33 "2010-09-13T06:26:07Z")
> [@Mozart1220](#): > > > [@Lobohan](#): > > > > Jesus merciful fuck, when did every uneducated guy on the street become an expert in skyscraper demolitions. :rolleyes: > > After seeing these buildiings fall STRAIGHT DOWN into their own footprint exactly like controlled demolitions. > > It doesn’t take an expert to see that the odds of that happening once with buildings of this size are astronomical. Three times suspends belief. > > And building 7 was never hit by a plane, and was not effected by jet fuel. “I don’t understand this event, so instead of listening to rational, logical, physically and mathematically demonstrable explanations, I choose to believe GRAAAAHHHHH GOOOGUL GOOOGUL AGGA AGGA AGGA AGGA AROOOOOGAH OOH OOH OOH %&$@!!!1111” ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/34 "2010-09-13T07:16:47Z")
> [@Mozart1220](#): > > After seeing these buildiings fall STRAIGHT DOWN into their own footprint exactly like controlled demolitions. Pretty much everything I drop falls STRAIGHT DOWN – usually onto my toes, painfully. I’d love to be able to blame that on some terrorists or government plot, instead of my own clumsiness. But I don’t. I really can’t understand why CTers think things falling STRAIGHT DOWN is unusual. ---
**Author:** ![fuzzypickles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9d8465/32.png) [@fuzzypickles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fuzzypickles)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/35 "2010-09-13T08:33:47Z")
> [@Mozart1220](#): > > After seeing these buildiings fall STRAIGHT DOWN into their own footprint exactly like controlled demolitions. It’s called “gravity”, son. To explain, here’s an experiment you can conduct in your own home. Pick up a large red brick and hold it high over your head, then let go. In which direction does it fall? Upwards? Sideways? Down, but at an angle? Repeat the experiment several times and get back to us with the results. ETA: I’d like to see video of these supposed burning skyscrapers. Keep in mind, the smoke from high-rise fires can engulf the entire building when the actual fire is contained to a very small area. ---
**Author:** ![Uosdwis\_R.Dewoh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Uosdwis\_R.Dewoh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uosdwis_R.Dewoh)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/36 "2010-09-13T09:22:58Z")
> [@Mozart1220](#): > > After seeing these buildiings fall STRAIGHT DOWN into their own footprint exactly like controlled demolitions. [Here’s](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8U4erFzhC-U) a clip of tall building collapsing due to controlled demolitions. Note how neatly it collapses into a pile of rubble. Also note how fucking loud the explosions are. Compare that to _WTC Tower 1_ [collapsing](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZ8wlKK15JM). Shit and debris flying several hundred meters in all directions. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/37 "2010-09-13T11:28:33Z")
WTC7 didn’t collapse “straight down.” It’s failure severely compromised [Fiterman Hall](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiterman_Hall#Fiterman_Hall_and_the_September_11_attacks), a community college building across the street to the North (just like WTC7 itself was across the street to the north of WTC1 and suffered from the collapse of the larger building). Fiterman Hall had to be torn down and has since been rebuilt. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/38 "2010-09-13T11:41:27Z")
Mozart is thinking of [Jenga](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenga). Because the constituents are solid, when it falls, it topples over and hits the ground on its side (more or less). He’s neglecting that a skyscraper is probably 99% air and is built of materials just baaaaarely strong enough to keep itself upright. It would be like building a 5 foot tall structure, 4 inches in width and depth, out of nothing more than hardened layers of wet ash, and where 99% of it was hollow. You might be able to do it, and even to get it so you could lightly throw a scale Cesna at it and not cause it to fall, but it sure as hell ain’t a tower of Jenga. You can’t compact a tower made of wood blocks, like Jenga. To make it fall, it has to fall to the side. But a skyscraper can be compacted just fine. The force of 50 stories in free fall is enough to punch through the lower stories. Instead of the lower stories staying steady and forcing the upper-stories to topple and fall sideways, it just goes straight down with only the sliiiiightest, unnoticeable bit of lean in there. ---
**Author:** ![Crotalus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crotalus/32/41_2.png) [@Crotalus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crotalus)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/39 "2010-09-13T12:42:55Z")
Folks who want to read about some of the science related to skyscraper fires should look at [On Debunking 9/11 Debunking](http://www.jod911.com/drg_nist_review_1_0.pdf) by Ryan Mackey. It is a 198-page PDF. It won’t prove anything to a CTer, but for anyone curious about the physics and history of tall-building fires, there is some useful stuff in there. ---
**Author:** ![Baracus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/2bfe46/32.png) [@Baracus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baracus)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2010, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541/40 "2010-09-13T13:05:11Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > You can’t compact a tower made of wood blocks, like Jenga. To make it fall, it has to fall to the side. But a skyscraper can be compacted just fine. The force of 50 stories in free fall is enough to punch through the lower stories. Instead of the lower stories staying steady and forcing the upper-stories to topple and fall sideways, it just goes straight down with only the sliiiiightest, unnoticeable bit of lean in there. The “OMG the towers fell STRAIGHT DOWN” argument fails on me for this reason, especially in the case of the second tower. Why would it topple over? If a fire at the 100th floor somehow caused the tower to snap in two at the 20th floor, I would think that THAT would point to something fishy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/skyscrapers-on-fire-not-collapsing/553541.md?page=3)