# Slam Dunk Argument Against An Omnimax God? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 6, 2010, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slam-dunk-argument-against-an-omnimax-god/535212 "2010-04-06T23:14:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Cort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/77aa72/32.png) [@Cort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cort)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slam-dunk-argument-against-an-omnimax-god/535212/1 "2010-04-06T23:14:33Z")
I don’t remember where I heard this but it seems pretty watertight. God is Omnimax. That is, he is all powerful, all loving, and knows absolutely everything without exception. If God knows everything, this means he must know everything that Man knows. Man knows hatred, rage, lust, and envy. Therefore God also knows these things. Since it is impossible to “know” an emotion without actually _feeling_ it, God must feel hatred, rage, lust, and envy. Therefore the idea of an Omnimax God is self defeating. I’ve been thinking about this for a little while and I can’t see any flaws in the logic. Is there an answer to this argument? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slam-dunk-argument-against-an-omnimax-god/535212/2 "2010-04-06T23:20:40Z")
“How many tails does a dog have, if you call a tail a leg?” “Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn’t make it one.” There are many reasons to disbelieve in an omnimax god, including but not limited to sudden infant death syndrome, _Yersinia pestis_, and the state of Arkansas. Your argument seems…ill-thought. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slam-dunk-argument-against-an-omnimax-god/535212/3 "2010-04-06T23:21:06Z")
I think there are better arguments about why God can’t be ‘omnimax’ than that s/he/it feels emotions… (I believe that there was a discussion about why God can’t be omnipotent in GD fairly recently, where I show why it doesn’t pay to try and debate with philosophy majors while drinking heavily…) -XT ---
**Author:** ![SoulFrost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f07891/32.png) [@SoulFrost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SoulFrost)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slam-dunk-argument-against-an-omnimax-god/535212/4 "2010-04-06T23:24:08Z")
By your logic, wouldn’t almost everyone be a racist, homophobic, tolerant, liberal, conservative, innocent murdering rapist virgin? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slam-dunk-argument-against-an-omnimax-god/535212/5 "2010-04-06T23:25:19Z")
> [@Cort](#): > > Man knows hatred, rage, lust, and envy. Therefore God also knows these things. > > Since it is impossible to “know” an emotion without actually _feeling_ it, God must feel hatred, rage, lust, and envy. I don’t know about this. A person can know what “falling in love” is without having experienced it. A person can know what hate is (I’m thinking particularly of racial hatred) without hating anyone or anything. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slam-dunk-argument-against-an-omnimax-god/535212/6 "2010-04-06T23:26:18Z")
> [@Cort](#): > > Man knows hatred, rage, lust, and envy. Therefore God also knows these things. > > Since it is impossible to “know” an emotion without actually _feeling_ it, God must feel hatred, rage, lust, and envy. I think the logic breaks down here. A higher being could know everything about an emotion without feeling it itself. Much like how a human could know everything about a how a bacterium responds to some stimulus, with also experiencing that same response. I’m an atheist, FWIW. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slam-dunk-argument-against-an-omnimax-god/535212/7 "2010-04-06T23:26:38Z")
Logic isn’t part of the equation. Maybe this makes perfect, flawless sense, but believers don’t care about your logic and reason. Faith trumps all. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slam-dunk-argument-against-an-omnimax-god/535212/8 "2010-04-06T23:29:04Z")
Furthermore, the omnimax God would completely understand the underlying neurological mechanisms that produce our emotions. I can know everything about how a computer works without BEING a computer. I can completely understand the functioning of a car without BEING a car. I can’t see any reason why an omnimax God couldn’t completely understand how human emotions work without ever experiencing them himself. I think you’re better off just sticking with The Problem of Evil. ---
**Author:** ![Ace309](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ace309/32/1050_2.png) [@Ace309](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ace309)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slam-dunk-argument-against-an-omnimax-god/535212/9 "2010-04-06T23:32:39Z")
> [@DCnDC](#): > > Logic isn’t part of the equation. Maybe this makes perfect, flawless sense, but believers don’t care about your logic and reason. Faith trumps all. Nonetheless, the topic of the thread is the logical cogency of the OP’s argument, no? ---
**Author:** ![Cort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/77aa72/32.png) [@Cort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cort)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slam-dunk-argument-against-an-omnimax-god/535212/10 "2010-04-06T23:35:38Z")
> [@Skald The Rhymer](#): > > There are many reasons to disbelieve in an omnimax god, including but not limited to sudden infant death syndrome, Yersinia pestis, and the state of Arkansas. Your argument seems…ill-thought. I’m not saying it’s the most powerful argument out there, but it does seem to be the neatest (after Arkansas). It clearly demonstrates that the very idea of a totally perfect God is logically incoherent. > [@SoulFrost](#): > > By your logic, wouldn’t almost everyone be a racist, homophobic, tolerant, liberal, conservative, innocent murdering rapist virgin? Well, I’d venture to say that most people struggle with racist and homophobic thoughts from time to time. That doesn’t mean we’re all bigots but it does mean we’re not perfect. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slam-dunk-argument-against-an-omnimax-god/535212/11 "2010-04-06T23:37:46Z")
> [@Cort](#): > > Since it is impossible to “know” an emotion without actually _feeling_ it, God must feel hatred, rage, lust, and envy. Here’s where your argument doesn’t hold water. Omnimax-ness is miraculous; it’s not concerned with your petty assertion of impossibleness here. The presumption of omniscience is that God has all knowledge _without a source_. He hasn’t experienced the future yet - but he knows it anyway. He hasn’t sat down and written out PI - but he knows all the digits anyway. He’s never _not_ been God, but he knows how it feels to be you anyway. And, presumably, he might not have ever personally experienced anger - but being omnimax that would be no impediment to knowing what it feels like anyway. I second the sentiment of sticking to the POE. _That’s_ watertight. ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slam-dunk-argument-against-an-omnimax-god/535212/12 "2010-04-06T23:38:41Z")
> [@Ace309](#): > > Nonetheless, the topic of the thread is the logical cogency of the OP’s argument, no? I feel that’s dependent on who he’s ultimately trying to convince. ? ---
**Author:** ![SoulFrost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f07891/32.png) [@SoulFrost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SoulFrost)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2010, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slam-dunk-argument-against-an-omnimax-god/535212/13 "2010-04-06T23:45:03Z")
> [@Cort](#): > > I’m not saying it’s the most powerful argument out there, but it does seem to be the neatest (after Arkansas). It clearly demonstrates that the very idea of a totally perfect God is logically incoherent. Sure you are–you called it a slam dunk. You give “totally perfect” what meaning, exactly? Perfect by what standards? > [@](#): > > Well, I’d venture to say that most people struggle with racist and homophobic thoughts from time to time. That doesn’t mean we’re all bigots but it does mean we’re not perfect. If we’re not perfect, how could our imperfect standards be imposed as a measure of perfection? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slam-dunk-argument-against-an-omnimax-god/535212/14 "2010-04-07T05:53:11Z")
I think Cort did a decent job. If nothing else, I had never heard the term omnimax before. > [@Revtim](#): > > I think the logic breaks down here. A higher being could know everything about an emotion without feeling it itself. Much like how a human could know everything about a how a bacterium responds to some stimulus, with also experiencing that same response. > > I’m an atheist, FWIW. But a human can’t know all there is to know about bacterial response without 100% empathy with that bacteria. A human can only know _some_ aspects of bacterial existence. Of course that’s fine: we really only need to know about the bits that are important to us. ## For God to fully understand humans, He needs to have the experience of being human. So He therefore can’t be all-loving. Luckily He can’t be all-hating either. But the Bible doesn’t really say that God is omnimax. See for example the Book of Job. And unlike the POE, this argument can be dispensed with by saying: “Ok then, maybe we were being a little hyperbolic. God isn’t omnimax, so what?” ---
**Author:** ![ragerdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d07c76/32.png) [@ragerdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ragerdude)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slam-dunk-argument-against-an-omnimax-god/535212/15 "2010-04-07T06:04:33Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > “How many tails does a dog have, if you call a tail a leg?” > > “Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn’t make it one.” > > There are many reasons to disbelieve in an omnimax god, including but not limited to sudden infant death syndrome, _Yersinia pestis_, and the state of Arkansas. Your argument seems…ill-thought. I think you meant that to be “How many **legs** does a dog have, if you call a tail a leg?” ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Smashy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/2bfe46/32.png) [@Mr\_Smashy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Smashy)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slam-dunk-argument-against-an-omnimax-god/535212/16 "2010-04-07T12:56:01Z")
Cute paradox/word games. Reminds me of another one I heard: Is God all-powerful? _Yes_ Is it possible for God to create a boulder so large and heavy that even He cannot move it? _Um…_ ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slam-dunk-argument-against-an-omnimax-god/535212/17 "2010-04-07T13:12:07Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Cute paradox/word games. …are not a substitute for thought. It’s the sort of gotcha that only works in a word game and fails in reality. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slam-dunk-argument-against-an-omnimax-god/535212/18 "2010-04-07T13:12:10Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Furthermore, the omnimax God would completely understand the underlying neurological mechanisms that produce our emotions. > > I can know everything about how a computer works without BEING a computer. > > I can completely understand the functioning of a car without BEING a car. > > I can’t see any reason why an omnimax God couldn’t completely understand how human emotions work without ever experiencing them himself. > > I think you’re better off just sticking with The Problem of Evil. I think you are right, evil is the easiest argument against God. But still has no merit. > **[Where did Evil come from? - Lekatt Thoughtful Living](https://aleroy.com/blog/archives/651/where-did-evil-come-from)** > > The physical world, in which we now live, was created to provide a classroom for young souls to learn about themselves and others. Here we take physical bodies that seemingly separate us from others. ---
**Author:** ![SoulFrost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f07891/32.png) [@SoulFrost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SoulFrost)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slam-dunk-argument-against-an-omnimax-god/535212/19 "2010-04-07T13:15:54Z")
> [@Mr\_Smashy](#): > > Cute paradox/word games. > > Reminds me of another one I heard: > > Is God all-powerful? _Yes_ > > Is it possible for God to create a boulder so large and heavy that even He cannot move it? _Um…_ Sure He could… then He’d just locally change the definition of gravitational attraction so that the term “weight” is meaningless when applied to the boulder. It’d be a miracle. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2010, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slam-dunk-argument-against-an-omnimax-god/535212/20 "2010-04-07T13:19:27Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > For God to fully understand humans, He needs to have the experience of being human. So He therefore can’t be all-loving. Luckily He can’t be all-hating either. No, he doesn’t. By definition, an omni-max god knows everything already. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slam-dunk-argument-against-an-omnimax-god/535212.md?page=2)