# "Slavery Was A Choice," is a poor way of phrasing the observation **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 2, 2018, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slavery-was-a-choice-is-a-poor-way-of-phrasing-the-observation/813470 "2018-05-02T17:16:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slavery-was-a-choice-is-a-poor-way-of-phrasing-the-observation/813470/21 "2018-05-03T05:11:28Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Not only were there slave revolts, but there were plenty of runaway slaves, although bounty hunters tried very hard to catch them. And the US supreme court upheld the fugitive slave act and otherwise abetted slavery. > > As usual Stranger had the best words on this question. One thing I learned recently was that there weren’t really a lot of runaway slaves. Out of the millions of slaves in the country, only a few hundred ever attempted to run away. Overall, the slave states would have been smarter to have simply ignored the issue. They should have adopted an unofficial policy of minimal pursuit of any runaway who made it into a free state or territory. Because their efforts to enforce slavery in states that had ended it was a major cause of opposition to slavery. Enforcing fugitive slave laws in free states did a lot more harm to the cause of slavery than the successful escape of a relatively small number of runaways would have. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slavery-was-a-choice-is-a-poor-way-of-phrasing-the-observation/813470/22 "2018-05-03T06:14:04Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > One thing I learned recently was that there weren’t really a lot of runaway slaves. Out of the millions of slaves in the country, only a few hundred ever attempted to run away. Cite? I suspect you’re confusing “number of slaves who attempted to run away” with “number of slaves who successfully got far enough away, for long enough, to be entered in official statistics as a ‘runaway’”. In fact, even if it’s the latter I dispute that number. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slavery-was-a-choice-is-a-poor-way-of-phrasing-the-observation/813470/23 "2018-05-03T06:17:31Z")
But in terms of Kanye’s comment it’s at best stupid and misleading even if we go with the OP’s definition. There was plenty of resistance and defiance; and yes groups that obtained weapons and tried to resist en masse (it didn’t go well for them). Then there are those that, yeah, saw the next man get whipped to death and decided to keep their heads down. Which is perfectly understandable. And what I’d expect people of any skin color to do. So what’s his point? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slavery-was-a-choice-is-a-poor-way-of-phrasing-the-observation/813470/24 "2018-05-03T06:44:02Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Cite? I suspect you’re confusing “number of slaves who attempted to run away” with “number of slaves who successfully got far enough away, for long enough, to be entered in official statistics as a ‘runaway’”. > > In fact, even if it’s the latter I dispute that number. It was Gary Gallagher who said it and he’s a well-respected Civil War historian. > **[Gary Gallagher at University of Virginia | Rate My Professors](https://www.ratemyprofessors.com/professor/106323)** > > Gary Gallagher is a professor in the History department at University of Virginia - see what their students are saying about them or leave a rating yourself. > **[After Three Decades, Gallagher Still Enjoys Teaching the Civil War](https://news.virginia.edu/content/after-three-decades-gallagher-still-enjoys-teaching-civil-war)** > > University of Virginia history professor Gary Gallagher said he was drawn into the Civil War by a photo of Confederate Gen. James Ewell Brown “Jeb” Stuart. > **[Gary W. Gallagher: books, biography, latest update](https://www.amazon.com/stores/author/B004H7BQX2)** > > Follow Gary W. Gallagher and explore their bibliography from Amazon.com's Gary W. Gallagher Author Page. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slavery-was-a-choice-is-a-poor-way-of-phrasing-the-observation/813470/25 "2018-05-03T06:45:35Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > One thing I learned recently was that there weren’t really a lot of runaway slaves. Out of the millions of slaves in the country, only a few hundred ever attempted to run away. You learned wrong. In just 20 years, the [Underground Railroad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underground_Railroad)moved _ **30,000** _ fugitives to Canda, alone. That doesn’t account for ones who didn’t use that route, either. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slavery-was-a-choice-is-a-poor-way-of-phrasing-the-observation/813470/26 "2018-05-03T06:47:02Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It was Gary Gallagher who said it and he’s a well-respected Civil War historian. > > [http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=106323](http://www.ratemyprofessors.com/ShowRatings.jsp?tid=106323) > [After Three Decades, Gallagher Still Enjoys Teaching the Civil War | UVA Today](https://news.virginia.edu/content/after-three-decades-gallagher-still-enjoys-teaching-civil-war) > [Amazon.com: Gary W. Gallagher: books, biography, latest update](https://www.amazon.com/Gary-W.-Gallagher/e/B000APB96O) Do you have a cite for what he actually said, and in what context? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slavery-was-a-choice-is-a-poor-way-of-phrasing-the-observation/813470/27 "2018-05-03T06:51:05Z")
Also, “Civil War expert” and “Slavery expert” are not quite the same thing… ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slavery-was-a-choice-is-a-poor-way-of-phrasing-the-observation/813470/28 "2018-05-03T06:52:36Z")
I could see “_at any one time_, there were only a few hundred actively fugitive slaves” as a valid statement, though. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slavery-was-a-choice-is-a-poor-way-of-phrasing-the-observation/813470/29 "2018-05-03T08:18:47Z")
The only way it makes sense to me to call slavery is a choice is in the context of saying the owners chose to embrace slavery, or the states chose to allow it. That other meaning of choice just seems like using the wrong word for a different concept. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slavery-was-a-choice-is-a-poor-way-of-phrasing-the-observation/813470/30 "2018-05-03T08:27:35Z")
If I’m doing my Stupid-to-English translation correctly, Kanye may have been attempting to suggest that black people continuing to think of themselves in terms of slavery over a century after slavery officially ended is a “choice”, and that they should instead look to the future. Being Kanye, however, whatever he meant by it he did say it in the most ridiculous way possible. Because that’s what Kanye does. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2018, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slavery-was-a-choice-is-a-poor-way-of-phrasing-the-observation/813470/31 "2018-05-03T09:00:15Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > If I’m doing my Stupid-to-English translation correctly, Kanye may have been attempting to suggest that black people continuing to think of themselves in terms of slavery over a century after slavery officially ended is a “choice”, and that they should instead look to the future. > > Being Kanye, however, whatever he meant by it he did say it in the most ridiculous way possible. Because that’s what Kanye does. Even if he said _that_, I would still think it was stupid. I don’t know anyone that defines themselves in terms of slavery but I think it’s a valid thing to bring up. Because even if slavery was over more than a century ago, there was nothing close to a level playing field until post- civil rights. This in a country with very low social mobility. And you can’t hide your skin color. So, yeah I’d consider it pretty naive and ignorant to imagine that the ripple effects of that history are confined to psychology and (lack of) aspiration. Bigger effects are growing up poor in a poor neighbourhood, and yes encountering passive and overt racism even now. And in terms of psychology, more helpful would be focusing on role models and stories of achievement, and less talking about black people as one block. What a shame that people like Kanye and Ben Carson don’t talk more about the hard work they put in, how they worked through difficulties etc. ---
**Author:** ![Warm\_blood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/df705f/32.png) [@Warm\_blood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Warm_blood)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2018, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slavery-was-a-choice-is-a-poor-way-of-phrasing-the-observation/813470/32 "2018-05-04T04:46:30Z")
This is a man who has sold and worn merchandise with the confederate flag embedded on it just to feel edgy. He has publicly backed an openly racist president multiple times. I feel pretty safe in assuming that his callous comments on slavery stem from a place of sheer ignorance and irreverence towards his own history, not some deep philosophical musings about what constitutes a “choice”. Also, I really wish people would stop defaulting to blaming deplorable behaviour on mental illness. Yes, I am aware that certain forms of mental illness can cause you to detach from reality and make you do/say things you normally wouldn’t dream of doing, but none of us are Kanye’s psychiatrist so we’re not in a position to ascertain that his shitty actions are in fact the result of mental illness. Most mentally ill people aren’t bigots or mass shooters in waiting. This rush to absolve a person of responsibility and blaming every terrible thing they do on mental illness contributes to the stigmatisation of mental illness, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2018, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slavery-was-a-choice-is-a-poor-way-of-phrasing-the-observation/813470/33 "2018-05-04T09:10:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Not precisely. This is the problem with the word “choice:” parsed finely, there is no question that handing over your wallet at the point of a gun is, in fact, a choice. But it’s not a choice that the paw recognizes as a freely made one. > > In other words, “choice,” usually implies “choice freely made,” but it does not have to. > > The difficulty here is the fallacy of equivocation. We hear “choice,” and infer the most common meaning; West may have intended the more hypertechnical meaning. I haven’t studied Mr. West’s comments (or indeed, read them). Does a contextualized reading of them offer any clues as to which meaning he intended his readers/listeners to infer? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2018, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slavery-was-a-choice-is-a-poor-way-of-phrasing-the-observation/813470/34 "2018-05-04T10:25:59Z")
> [@Warm\_blood](#): > > This is a man who has sold and worn merchandise with the confederate flag embedded on it just to feel edgy. He has publicly backed an openly racist president multiple times. I feel pretty safe in assuming that his callous comments on slavery stem from a place of sheer ignorance and irreverence towards his own history, not some deep philosophical musings about what constitutes a “choice”. > > Also, I really wish people would stop defaulting to blaming deplorable behaviour on mental illness. Yes, I am aware that certain forms of mental illness can cause you to detach from reality and make you do/say things you normally wouldn’t dream of doing, but none of us are Kanye’s psychiatrist so we’re not in a position to ascertain that his shitty actions are in fact the result of mental illness. Most mentally ill people aren’t bigots or mass shooters in waiting. This rush to absolve a person of responsibility and blaming every terrible thing they do on mental illness contributes to the stigmatisation of mental illness, IMO. Saying someone is mentally ill doesn’t absolve them of their actions, but it can help explain them. In this case, I think it’s possible that mania removes inhibitions and allowed him to vocalize a thought that anyone should be able to predict would cause problems. I think his own narcissism allows him to find commonality with Trump and supporting him is a way to support himself. That doesn’t mean I don’t think he’s not profoundly ignorant. He is indeed an asshole who doesn’t care about other people. Removing inhibitions doesn’t make you say things like this. And it definitely doesn’t make you don’t feel bad about it later and try to make amends when you’re feeling better. Has Kanye ever apologized? Kanye is both mentally ill and a bad person. There’s nothing wrong with both of those being true. Maybe treatment would help him be able to learn to become a better person, maybe not. But it would help explain why he doesn’t seem to know things that everyone else should know. Sure, fame and how it cuts you off and affirms your self-entitlement is also an issue, but mental illness makes those effects worse. ---
**Author:** ![Omega\_Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7c8e57/32.png) [@Omega\_Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omega_Glory)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2018, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slavery-was-a-choice-is-a-poor-way-of-phrasing-the-observation/813470/35 "2018-05-04T11:33:11Z")
Kanye just learned that Lincoln was a Republican last week. He shared this on Twitter as if he thought it was an obscure fact. It’s not that he misspoke; he jumped to a conclusion and threw it out there because he doesn’t have any idea what slavery was like or about the people who did work to escape. ---
**Author:** ![Omega\_Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7c8e57/32.png) [@Omega\_Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omega_Glory)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2018, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slavery-was-a-choice-is-a-poor-way-of-phrasing-the-observation/813470/36 "2018-05-04T11:47:03Z")
I forgot to add this link. > **[A High School Teacher Explains History to Kanye West](https://www.newsweek.com/kanye-west-twitter-republicans-donald-trump-history-lincoln-906511)** > > The rapper tweeted, "Republicans were the ones \[who\] helped black people." It's a little more complicated than that. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2018, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slavery-was-a-choice-is-a-poor-way-of-phrasing-the-observation/813470/37 "2018-05-04T12:56:45Z")
You guys are all missing the point, which is that Kanye has an album coming out in June (actually 2 albums if I’m not mistaken). And here we all are talking about Kanye in May. That’s as deep as this gets. ---
**Author:** ![The\_wind\_of\_my\_soul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@The\_wind\_of\_my\_soul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_wind_of_my_soul)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2018, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slavery-was-a-choice-is-a-poor-way-of-phrasing-the-observation/813470/38 "2018-05-04T13:21:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The Twitterverse is infuriated at Kanye West’s comment during a TMZ interview: > > (via CNN) > > I think this statement can be parsed as accurate, if we accept that “choice,” applies to things like handing over your wallet during a robbery to avoid being shot. It’s a choice in the sense that you could choose to fight, run, or attempt to beguile the mugger with a Italian aria instead of handing over your wallet. > > But without making crystal clear that you’re using the word “choice,” in a very specific and parochial way, the ordinary meaning of the word is assumed, and of course under that meaning slavery was clearly not a choice. > > It’s clear to me that West had a similar sort of “out,” in mind; his follow-up clarifications relate to the length of time that race-based slavery existed without falling to a mass rebellion. He says, I think, that since no mass rebellion ensued, the continuation of slavery may be characterized as a choice. > > Again. . .er . . . yes, but only when the word is used to denote the decision to avoid injury or death by complying with odious conditions. It’s not a good word to use. Man, I’m REALLY hesitant to say anything at all because I know the way Dopers love to twist other people’s words around if they disagree with you. But … I, for one, agree with your interpretation, **Bricker**. I have a friend who is pretty obsessed with Kanye West, and he’s had me watch long interviews of Kanye’s and explained to me some details about Kanye’s philosophy towards everything. And Kanye’s attitude is “Reach out and take it.” That if someone tells him he can’t do something, that it’s too hard or too ambitious or something, he’s like “Fuck you, watch me.” So I think it’s likely that if he thinks of slavery as a choice, what he means is that you should choose to fight back even when you have a gun to your head. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slavery-was-a-choice-is-a-poor-way-of-phrasing-the-observation/813470.md?page=1)