# "Slaves lived a life of plenty, of simple pleasures" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 11, 2004, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slaves-lived-a-life-of-plenty-of-simple-pleasures/279273 "2004-12-11T05:17:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Milkman\_Dan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3da27b/32.png) [@Milkman\_Dan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milkman_Dan)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slaves-lived-a-life-of-plenty-of-simple-pleasures/279273/61 "2004-12-11T22:59:14Z")
> [@Searching For Truth](#): > > Yeah, seeing an article from a website called “[EvilBible.com](http://EvilBible.com)” makes me think I’m gonna find a really good, unbiased examination of Biblical references to slavery. Great cite. > > Come on, **Reeder**. _Christians have to agree with slavery?_ Since when did all Christians have a world-wide powpow and decide to follow the interpretation YOU have of the Bible condoning slavery? Can you cite some passages of the Bible that explicitly forbid slavery? ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slaves-lived-a-life-of-plenty-of-simple-pleasures/279273/62 "2004-12-11T23:31:51Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Especially since the vast majority of slaves were actually _sold_ by New England slave merchants. To southerners. What’s your point? Slavery was common in the northern colonies, and it’s only economics that made it useless to the north when the industrial revolution hit. The Founding Fathers were uncomfortable with it, but not uncomfortable enough to ban it. The fact that the government permitted it in the south, and that the north sat back and condoned it, makes it irrelevant who might have shipped the slaves from Africa, since clearly the entire Union colluded to do it. So what? It was still wrong. So were the lynchings that took place between reconstruction and around 1920 (mostly, I might note, a southern phenomenon.) I don’t remember anyone in a previous post trying to claim that the south is uniquely responsible for slavery. Speaking of which, what’s your feeling on slavery? Does a person have the right to sell themself into slavery? Some libertarian thinkers, IIRC, support that. > [@jarbabyj](#): > > Of course the atheists have a dog in the fight. it’s their goal to ‘debunk’ the bible and christianity, is it not? No, dear. As a person who has zero religious beliefs at all, let me tell you that I couldn’t care less what you believe. Why would an athiest care whether others are religious? We’re not an organized movement, either. And the “fight” between Christianity and atheism is entirely one-sided. We don’t care what you guys do. It’s just rather annoying that a few Christians feel the need to worry about what we do. > [@jarbabyj](#): > > I’m sorry, but i can’t buy it. I’ve read the Bible cover to cover, studied it. I happen to believe in it’s teachings, and while I can almost gleen out where homosexuality is prohibited (but I’m still not buying THAT), I am absolutely missing where the Bible, and specifically the NEW TESTAMENT actually condones slavery, i.e., the owning of one human being by another. If someone can offer me a chapter and verse, specifically Reeder, since he made the assertion, I’d be happy to look into it. I’m not exactly a Bible scholar, but apparently there’s some bit where two brothers, Ham and Shem, ran across their drunken father (I think it was Noah.) Noah was passed out and naked, and Ham laughed at his father’s nakedness, while Shem covered him up. And so Ham was marked forever, and his descendents were to serve as the slaves of Shem’s descendents, who became the Semites. Supposedly, Ham’s skin was darkened, and thus blacks are the sons of Ham and condemned to slavery. That’s the story I’ve heard, and I can’t say where it happened in the Bible. It’s not New Testament, but then, the Old Testament is still held to be cannon, is it not? Now certainly many prominent abolitionists were Christian, and using the Bible’s overall message of love and compassion, they argued vociferously that it was contrary to God’s will. Obviously this is a better interpretation of the spirit of Biblical teachings, but it’s a long book and people can find a lot of stuff in it. But yes, there were definitely those in the south who used the Bible to justify slavery. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slaves-lived-a-life-of-plenty-of-simple-pleasures/279273/63 "2004-12-11T23:48:59Z")
> [@jarbabyj](#): > > I am absolutely missing where the Bible, and specifically the NEW TESTAMENT actually condones slavery, i.e., the owning of one human being by another. If someone can offer me a chapter and verse, specifically Reeder, since he made the assertion, I’d be happy to look into it. I’m not **Reeder** but here you go… **1 Peter 2:18** Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. **Ephesians 6:5** 5Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. **Leviticus 25:44** 'Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. That’s just a taste. There’s plenty more. Shall I go on or are you satisfied? Now…can you find anything in the Bible which _consemns_ the practice of slavery? (I’ll save you the trouble. You can’t) ---
**Author:** ![PaulFitzroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/2acd7d/32.png) [@PaulFitzroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulFitzroy)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slaves-lived-a-life-of-plenty-of-simple-pleasures/279273/64 "2004-12-11T23:51:18Z")
> [@](#): > > Now certainly many prominent abolitionists were Christian, and using the Bible’s overall message of love and compassion, they argued vociferously that it was contrary to God’s will. Obviously this is a better interpretation of the spirit of Biblical teachings, but it’s a long book and people can find a lot of stuff in it. But yes, there were definitely those in the south who used the Bible to justify slavery. Let’s distinguish here between old testament and new. The overarching term “Bible” is useless in my opinion; Old Testament Judaism has very little in common with the beliefs of Christianity. Slavery is condoned as far as I know by the Torah. The message of “love and compassion” is pure Christianity. Judaism is a religion from a warlike tribe. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2004, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slaves-lived-a-life-of-plenty-of-simple-pleasures/279273/65 "2004-12-11T23:55:25Z")
> [@jarbabyj](#): > > Although there is a silver lining here. Every time Reeder makes an idiotic assumption, an angel gets its wings. Which is why all angels have, at minimum, three sets of wings. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slaves-lived-a-life-of-plenty-of-simple-pleasures/279273/66 "2004-12-12T00:06:12Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Now…can you find anything in the Bible which _consemns_ the practice of slavery? > > (I’ll save you the trouble. You can’t) Hopefully you ment “_explicitly_ condemns”? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slaves-lived-a-life-of-plenty-of-simple-pleasures/279273/67 "2004-12-12T00:09:14Z")
> [@PaulFitzroy](#): > > Let’s distinguish here between old testament and new. The overarching term “Bible” is useless in my opinion; Old Testament Judaism has very little in common with the beliefs of Christianity. Slavery is condoned as far as I know by the Torah. The message of “love and compassion” is pure Christianity. Judaism is a religion from a warlike tribe. Pure poppycock. The Golden Rule is right out of Leviticus. I’ve already cited two New Testament verses which condone slavery. If you want divine wrath, check out Revelation sometime. The Hebrew Bible (as well as the Talmud) is filled with compassionate messages. This meme that the OT God is all blood and guts while the NT God is all puppies and bunnies is a ridiculous over-simplification. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slaves-lived-a-life-of-plenty-of-simple-pleasures/279273/68 "2004-12-12T00:14:41Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Hopefully you ment “_explicitly_ condemns”? Is there anything that condemns it even indirectly? There are instructions on how to take care of your slave and be a good massah but nothing that says the practice itself is wrong. There are multiple instances in the HB where God pretty much _commands_ the Israelites to take slaves. I’m definitely not trying to make any case that Christians (or Jews) have to be pro-slavery but I do think they have to admit that their scriptures contain some cultural and historical archaisms which can’t be defended as legitimate anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slaves-lived-a-life-of-plenty-of-simple-pleasures/279273/69 "2004-12-12T00:17:43Z")
> [@MMI](#): > > **Liberal** Would it not be fair to say that the vast majority of slaves _imported_ were imported on New England ships (in the uniquely miserable conditions of the middle passage)? Given the arguments made about the relatively salutory conditions of American slavery and the fact that the institution (and domestic sales) continued for fifty years after the trade ceased to be legal I would guess that the majority of _sales_ were by southerners to southerners of slaves bred right here in these United States. Some smuggling likely took place, but the slave population more than tripled, from 1.2 million in 1808 (when importations were abolished) to 4 million by 1860. The need to import fell pretty drastically. ---
**Author:** ![Muad\_Dib](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/35a633/32.png) [@Muad\_Dib](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muad_Dib)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slaves-lived-a-life-of-plenty-of-simple-pleasures/279273/70 "2004-12-12T00:37:41Z")
Not that I want to be on the side of white-washing our nations greatest shame, but didn’t Alexis de Tocqueville sorta describe slavery in the sout like that? ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slaves-lived-a-life-of-plenty-of-simple-pleasures/279273/71 "2004-12-12T00:43:02Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > As for Reeder’s comment: Can’t believe I’m defending Reeder here, but I think you are taking sarcasm too seriously in this instance. He wasn’t seroiusly saying that all Christians have to believe slavery is justified, but rather that for some a true literalist defense of the Bible requires defending the indefensible, including slavery. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slaves-lived-a-life-of-plenty-of-simple-pleasures/279273/72 "2004-12-12T00:45:46Z")
> [@jarbabyj](#): > > Of course the atheists have a dog in the fight. it’s their goal to ‘debunk’ the bible and christianity, is it not? As long as no one tells me I have to bunk something, I don’t particularly feel the need to debunk it. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slaves-lived-a-life-of-plenty-of-simple-pleasures/279273/73 "2004-12-12T00:47:08Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Pure poppycock. > > The Golden Rule is right out of Leviticus. I’ve already cited two New Testament verses which condone slavery. If you want divine wrath, check out Revelation sometime. > > The Hebrew Bible (as well as the Talmud) is filled with compassionate messages. This meme that the OT God is all blood and guts while the NT God is all puppies and bunnies is a ridiculous over-simplification. At least the OT God never imagines anything as unimaginably detestable as neverending eternal suffering. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slaves-lived-a-life-of-plenty-of-simple-pleasures/279273/74 "2004-12-12T00:52:03Z")
I wonder: is there any Biblical support for the idea that there is a particular list of things one must believe to truly be a Christian that includes belief that the Bible is literal and infaliable? I would think it would be hard case to make for anything in the NT, given that it was written without knowledge of any such thing as a Bible ever existing. But some NT and OT books do make claims about OT Scripture, so it’s not impossible either (however, OT books on the other hand certainly never define “Christian” either) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slaves-lived-a-life-of-plenty-of-simple-pleasures/279273/75 "2004-12-12T00:53:29Z")
de Tocqueville wrote of slaves “admiring” their masters and of freed slaves being doomed to suffering, but his account is a mixture of ethnocentric paternalism and rationalization oddly combined with a sharp eye for reality. It is hardly a blanket endorsement of slavery. > [@](#): > > Oppression has, at one stroke, deprived the descendants of the Africans of almost all the privileges of humanity. The Negro of the United States has lost even the remembrance of his country; the language which his forefathers spoke is never heard around him; he abjured their religion and forgot their customs when he ceased to belong to Africa, without acquiring any claim to European privileges. But he remains half-way between the two communities, isolated between two races; sold by the one, repulsed by the other; finding not a spot in the universe to call by the name of country, except the faint image of a home which the shelter of his master’s roof affords. > > The Negro has no family: woman is merely the temporary companion of his pleasures, and his children are on an equality with himself from the moment of their birth. Am I to call it a proof of God’s mercy, or a visitation of his wrath, that man, in certain states, appears to be insensible to his extreme wretchedness and almost obtains a depraved taste for the cause of his misfortunes? The Negro, plunged in this abyss of evils, scarcely feels his own calamitous situation. Violence made him a slave, and the habit of servitude gives him the thoughts and desires of a slave, he admires his tyrants more than he hates them, and finds his joy and his pride in the servile imitation of those who oppress him. His understanding is degraded to the level of his soul. > > The Negro enters upon slavery as soon as he is born, nay, he may have been purchased in the womb, and have begun his slavery before he began his existence. Equally devoid of wants and of enjoyment, and useless to himself, he learns, with his first notions of existence, that he is the property of another, who has an interest in preserving his life, and that the care of it does not devolve upon himself; even the power of thought appears to him a useless gift of Providence, and he quietly enjoys all the privileges of his debasement. > > If he becomes free, independence is often felt by him to be a heavier burden than slavery; for, having learned in the course of his life to submit to everything except reason, he is too unacquainted with her dictates to obey them. A thousand new desires beset him, and he has not the knowledge and energy necessary to resist them: these are masters which it is necessary to contend with, and he has learned only to submit and obey. In short, he is sunk to such a depth of wretchedness that while servitude brutalizes, liberty destroys him. [Chapter XVIII – THE PRESENT AND PROBABLE FUTURE CONDITION OF THE THREE RACES THAT INHABIT THE TERRITORY OF THE UNITED STATES](http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/DETOC/1_ch18.htm) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slaves-lived-a-life-of-plenty-of-simple-pleasures/279273/76 "2004-12-12T00:58:12Z")
Not that **Muad’Dib** was making a claim that de Tocqueville championed slavery–only that de Tocqueville’s description of a people who could not see any better goals for themselves because of the brutality imposed upon them differs sharply from the “harmonious” life depicted in the pamphlet mentioned in the OP.) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slaves-lived-a-life-of-plenty-of-simple-pleasures/279273/77 "2004-12-12T01:14:58Z")
It is somewhat ironic to me that the birth and driving force behind the abolition movement in the British Empire and USA was the protestant Christian [Quakers](http://cghs.dade.k12.fl.us/slavery/anti-slavery_movement/quakers.htm) who believed that owning slaves was sinful. The irony of course is that here is a bible thumping church trying to change society by identifying a “sinful” practice that they wish to ban. Sort of abandoning the principle of separation of church and state. No doubt there were plenty of people who were upset by these meddling “fundies”. > [@](#): > > It was as early as the 1600s that Quakers began their fight against slavery, and thus the beginning of the abolitionist movement. > They debated, made speeches, and preached to many people. By 1696, they made their first official declaration for > abolitionism in Pennsylvania, in which they declared they were not going to encourage the importation of slaves. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slaves-lived-a-life-of-plenty-of-simple-pleasures/279273/78 "2004-12-12T01:17:27Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > At least the OT God never imagines anything as unimaginably detestable as neverending eternal suffering. […shrug…] Why not give people the desires of their heart? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slaves-lived-a-life-of-plenty-of-simple-pleasures/279273/79 "2004-12-12T02:25:39Z")
> [@grienspace](#): > > It is somewhat ironic to me that the birth and driving force behind the abolition movement in the British Empire and USA was the protestant Christian [Quakers](http://cghs.dade.k12.fl.us/slavery/anti-slavery_movement/quakers.htm) who believed that owning slaves was sinful. > > The irony of course is that here is a bible thumping church trying to change society by identifying a “sinful” practice that they wish to ban. Sort of abandoning the principle of separation of church and state. No doubt there were plenty of people who were upset by these meddling “fundies”. What are you implying here? I wouldn’t call Quakers “fundies”. ---
**Author:** ![Searching\_For\_Truth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4da419/32.png) [@Searching\_For\_Truth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Searching_For_Truth)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2004, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slaves-lived-a-life-of-plenty-of-simple-pleasures/279273/80 "2004-12-12T02:54:26Z")
> [@Milkman Dan](#): > > Can you cite some passages of the Bible that explicitly forbid slavery? Nope. But there are plenty of passages urging love and compassion towards fellow man, and our shared inferiority before God-- and those are the passages I would guess most Christians pay attention to when it comes to slavery. [Billy Graham](http://www.billygraham.org/MyAnswer_Article.asp?ArticleID=1253) said, > [@](#): > > When one group or one race claims it is superior to another, pride has taken control—and pride is a sin. I suppose in BG’s eyes that slavery that is based on race superiority is a prideful sin and thus not something God smiles down benevolently upon. That’s one way to look at it. Here’s something else I’ve been wondering about. [Billy Graham’s website](http://www.billygraham.org/SH_StepsToPeace.asp) seems to sum well everything I’ve ever been taught about what it takes to become a Christian: > [@](#): > > Here is how you can receive Christ: > > 1. Admit your need (I am a sinner). > 2. Be willing to turn from your sins (repent). > 3. Believe that Jesus Christ died for you on the Cross and rose from the grave. > 4. Through prayer, invite Jesus Christ to come in and control your life through the Holy Spirit. (Receive Him as Lord and Savior.) Here’s another checklist from [http://www.faithman.org/howto.htm](http://www.faithman.org/howto.htm) > [@](#): > > Step #1 You Must Believe in Jesus > > Step #2 You Must Confess Your Sins > > Step #3 You Must Repent (Turn away from your sins) > > Step #4 You Must Confess Jesus Before Men > > Step #5 You Must Accept the Gift of Salvation Is an oath required that says one must believe in the complete, literal truth of the Bible? If so, can you provide me with a cite? [And doesn’t that raise the question: what\* is \* the Bible? Since certain books are canonical and others are not-- like the Apocrypha, etc.? Has its definition as a collection of specific books changed significantly since the Bible as we know it was finished?] As a sidenote, I can understand using the relationship between slave and master as an analogy for facets of a relationship with Christ/God. Complete obediance to God’s will is something desired by God (in my understanding)-- and using the analogy of a slave, devoted to the will of his master, is an effective one in conveying a relationship of dedication, compliance, and servitude. Like a son who listens to the wisdom of a father and obeys wholeheartedly, a follower of Christ gives up all worldly things to focus on Christ alone. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slaves-lived-a-life-of-plenty-of-simple-pleasures/279273.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slaves-lived-a-life-of-plenty-of-simple-pleasures/279273.md?page=5)