# Slavoj Zizek and the rise of authoritarian capitalism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 29, 2015, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slavoj-zizek-and-the-rise-of-authoritarian-capitalism/736096 "2015-10-29T16:44:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slavoj-zizek-and-the-rise-of-authoritarian-capitalism/736096/101 "2015-11-02T18:10:04Z")
[QUOTE=MrQwertyasd] Well that is an advert for running things the way they run them isn’t it ? Immunity from market crashes isn’t a bad thing. If bankers get out of hand, they execute them rather than throwing money at them. [/QUOTE] Whoa, what? You are living in a fantasy land if you think that the Chinese government doesn’t and hasn’t tried to ‘fix’ it’s crash (a crash THEY basically made) by throwing huge amounts of money at it. Staggering amounts really. And they don’t execute bankers for corruption…hell, most of them have ties to the party, if they aren’t actually party officials themselves. No, they execute bankers (rarely) when they are in the wrong faction. Xi’s current corruption campaign isn’t about actual corruption, but about his faction battling another faction. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slavoj-zizek-and-the-rise-of-authoritarian-capitalism/736096/102 "2015-11-02T18:14:19Z")
Don’t worry or feel insulted though, everything I say is false. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slavoj-zizek-and-the-rise-of-authoritarian-capitalism/736096/103 "2015-11-02T18:16:16Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Whoa, what? You are living in a fantasy land if you think that the Chinese government doesn’t and hasn’t tried to ‘fix’ it’s crash (a crash THEY basically made) by throwing huge amounts of money at it. Staggering amounts really. And they don’t execute bankers for corruption…hell, most of them have ties to the party, if they aren’t actually party officials themselves. No, they execute bankers (rarely) when they are in the wrong faction. Xi’s current corruption campaign isn’t about actual corruption, but about his faction battling another faction. The recent one yeah, but it’s tiddlywinks isn’t it. Did they close any factories down near you because of it ? They closed a shitload of shops and factories in my town after 2008. No more Woolworths. What did we get in the building that used to house Woolworth’s ? A shop selling plastic Chinese crap. Yup, they did OK. At least they’re executing someone. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slavoj-zizek-and-the-rise-of-authoritarian-capitalism/736096/104 "2015-11-02T18:23:56Z")
> [@](#): > > If Yugoslavian socialism produced a thoroughly cynical citizenry, a country of people who understood that the last thing the regime desired was for them to believe too ardently in the official principles of communism, this, argues Zizek, was ideology a t its most effective. “The paradox of the regime was that if people were to take their ideology seriously it would effectively destroy the system,” he says. In his account, cynicism and apathy are explanations not for the regime’s failure but, perversely, for its success. “The conventional wisdom is that socialism was a failure because, instead of creating a ‘New Man,’ it produced a country of cynics who believed that the system is corrupt, politics is a horror, and that only private happiness is possible ,” he argues. “But my point is this: Perhaps depoliticization was the true aim of socialist education? This was surely the daily experience of my youth.” > To counter this depoliticization, Zizek banded together with the Ljubljana Lacanians, a tightknit group of Slovenian scholars that included Mladen Dolar, Alenka Zupancic, Miran Bozovic, Zdravko Kobe, and Zizek’s wife, Renata Salecl. In their hands, Fre nch psychoanalysis acquired an often highly comic cast. The group took over a journal, _Problemi_, and founded a book publishing series, Analecta; inspired by Lacan’s roots in the French surrealist movement (he was friends with André Breton an d Salvador Dalí), they used these outlets to perpetrate several literary hoaxes. Articles in _Problemi_ were frequently written under pseudonyms or left unsigned, in parodic imitation of Stalinist practice. Zizek once wrote a pseudonymous review attacking one of his own books on Lacan. On another occasion, _Problemi_ published a fictional roundtable discussion of feminism in which Zizek played the boorish interlocutor, posing provocative questions to nonexistent participants. (Later, in _Enjoy Your Symptom!,_ Zizek continued to engage in literary hoaxes with an essay on the films of Roberto Rossellini–none of which he had seen.) With the regime’s aversion to Lacan on the rise, Zizek sensed a wonderful opportunity for mischief; writing in a widely read academic journal, _Anthropos_, under an assumed name, he published a deliberately clumsy attack on an imaginary book that allegedly detailed why Lacan’s theories were wrong. The next day bookstores across Ljubljana received requests for the title. I love this, thanks for the tip. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slavoj-zizek-and-the-rise-of-authoritarian-capitalism/736096/105 "2015-11-02T18:42:28Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > I love this, thanks for the tip. > [@](#): > > You’re welcome MrQwertyasd. I admire your questioning of dogmatic certainties and your willingness to entertain possibilities that most would hold to be pessimistic. It would certainly seem that Mr Zizek’s thesis has legs, even though it isn’t exactly sprinting into the lead in most people’s minds. You are quite right MrQwertyasd. I give the Western world 20 years at most before it is a carbon copy of Chinese state capitalism. Think capitalism with European values, it’s as good as anyone else’s wild guess. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slavoj-zizek-and-the-rise-of-authoritarian-capitalism/736096/106 "2015-11-02T18:54:34Z")
So, this isn’t a debate, but a bad conceptual art project? Ok, you have fun with that. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slavoj-zizek-and-the-rise-of-authoritarian-capitalism/736096/107 "2015-11-02T20:11:02Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > The recent one yeah, but it’s tiddlywinks isn’t it. Did they close any factories down near you because of it ? They closed a shitload of shops and factories in my town after 2008. No more Woolworths. What did we get in the building that used to house Woolworth’s ? A shop selling plastic Chinese crap. Yup, they did OK. > At least they’re executing someone. No idea what, if anything you are trying to say here. The CCP has always thrown huge amounts of cash at problems…or bodies if that’s what it took. That’s why they went from one crisis to the next tossing cash (and/or bodies) at them like grains of sand. None of this is new. Can you, instead of trying (and failing, IMHO) to be clever or whatever it is you are doing, just come right out and say whatever point you think you are making or trying to make? Do you think China executing people for being on the wrong side of a political wrangle is a good thing? Do you understand that the CCP is who caused their market crash, and that exactly zero party officials are going to be executed because of it, but that some might be executed because they aren’t in Xi’s faction but instead in another faction, or possibly to be made an example of to keep the people from blowing up? Do you understand that none of this demonstrates that China has some sort of new model capitalism, and that the real problem is because they DON’T have democracy, which means that the party isn’t beholden to anyone…which is why they can go from fuckup to fuckup, and that when THEY fuck up it dwarves anything we do? But that, because there isn’t a lot of outside investment allowed, that this means it has less effect outside of China, and that inside of China they can white wash the issues by controlling the media and message? Basically, your guy Zizek is not the best source, doesn’t seem to grasp even the basics, and I’m unsure you do either. The West™ isn’t moving towards a Chinese (or Russian) model ‘authoritarian capitalism’, which pretty demonstrably sucks for both China and Russia…in fact, China is succeeding IN SPITE of the authoritarian part but because they have allowed some small amounts of the capitalism part in, not because of it. The CCP is holding back China…they have huge potential that’s being stifled by the party. Putin and his merry band is holding back Russia, which, regardless, is a basket case and will continue to be, since something like 70% of their GDP comes from oil and gas, thus is dependent on the price of those being high. Neither model is one that anyone would or is aspiring to. ---
**Author:** ![Enterprise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/76d3ee/32.png) [@Enterprise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enterprise)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slavoj-zizek-and-the-rise-of-authoritarian-capitalism/736096/108 "2015-11-02T20:46:53Z")
> [@](#): > > There really is no point in a discussion with a true believer in such things, particularly when there is the evidence - as the linked past discussion - that there is only circular witnessing to happen. It is enough to note that left or right, no non-marxist economics use this theory as it is a failure and based on a simplistic misconception of the generation of value - one that could be understood c. 19e century but not since. That the marxist true believers cling to it is interesting from a political evolution point of view in studying a marginal movement and its attitudes to the foundational ideas, long passed by, but not for the study of the economics which discarded the concept at the end of the 19e century already. Good, so, just to make sure: you will not debate this issue with me, even though you assert it is a slam dunk for you? Is there anything else you would be willing to debate me on? Say, exploitation without the labor theory of value? That’s not so hard, we coulf totally do it. ---
**Author:** ![Enterprise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/76d3ee/32.png) [@Enterprise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enterprise)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slavoj-zizek-and-the-rise-of-authoritarian-capitalism/736096/109 "2015-11-02T20:59:44Z")
> [@XT](#): > > You should put in some effort. He qualifies this by saying he hasn’t read his BOOKS, but has read many of his articles, seen his interviews and his YouTube videos. So, no…I don’t think it’s a major issue. Have YOU read all his books and such? Well, I have. Most of them, anyway, the latest Hegelian tome was not for me. And I agree with the notion that you shouldn’t take second-hand criticism for gospel. Zizek’s books are more carefully argued than his Youtube clips… And that said, I am not sure I buy his argument. Now, I fully agree with his claim that capitalist economies no longer produce liberal democracies, if they ever did. That is, if China becomes more capitalist in the near future, I don’t think therefore it will become more democratic. But I am not sure this willl be the rosd for western democracies–towards less democracy. Now, the way TTIP is getting passed in Europe suggests something like that, but on the other hand, there is still considerable resistance to it: so I think all things are still possible. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slavoj-zizek-and-the-rise-of-authoritarian-capitalism/736096/110 "2015-11-02T23:17:44Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > So, this isn’t a debate, but a bad conceptual art project? > Ok, you have fun with that. You have all driven me to it, I cannot be held responsible. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2015, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slavoj-zizek-and-the-rise-of-authoritarian-capitalism/736096/111 "2015-11-02T23:38:40Z")
> [@XT](#): > > No idea what, if anything you are trying to say here. The CCP has always thrown huge amounts of cash at problems…or bodies if that’s what it took. That’s why they went from one crisis to the next tossing cash (and/or bodies) at them like grains of sand. None of this is new. > > Can you, instead of trying (and failing, IMHO) to be clever or whatever it is you are doing, just come right out and say whatever point you think you are making or trying to make? Do you think China executing people for being on the wrong side of a political wrangle is a good thing? Do you understand that the CCP is who caused their market crash, and that exactly zero party officials are going to be executed because of it, but that some might be executed because they aren’t in Xi’s faction but instead in another faction, or possibly to be made an example of to keep the people from blowing up? Do you understand that none of this demonstrates that China has some sort of new model capitalism, and that the real problem is because they DON’T have democracy, which means that the party isn’t beholden to anyone…which is why they can go from fuckup to fuckup, and that when THEY fuck up it dwarves anything we do? But that, because there isn’t a lot of outside investment allowed, that this means it has less effect outside of China, and that inside of China they can white wash the issues by controlling the media and message? > > Basically, your guy Zizek is not the best source, doesn’t seem to grasp even the basics, and I’m unsure you do either. The West™ isn’t moving towards a Chinese (or Russian) model ‘authoritarian capitalism’, which pretty demonstrably sucks for both China and Russia…in fact, China is succeeding IN SPITE of the authoritarian part but because they have allowed some small amounts of the capitalism part in, not because of it. The CCP is holding back China…they have huge potential that’s being stifled by the party. Putin and his merry band is holding back Russia, which, regardless, is a basket case and will continue to be, since something like 70% of their GDP comes from oil and gas, thus is dependent on the price of those being high. Neither model is one that anyone would or is aspiring to. I say it’s tiddlywinks because nothing really bad has happened. Crises schmises, and they’re not going to take the world down with them. And as for it being the government to blame, they always say that. if it is so what, it still isn’t as bad as the crises made in London and New York which required a good dose of socialism to sort out. So, pfff, fuck up to fuck up that has made them the world’s largest economy. Can we have a bit more fuck up over here please ? It dwarves anything we do ? Did you really say that ? The US and chums have produced the biggest fuck up ever, which is still ongoing. > **[These Were the Dow's 10 Worst Single-Day Losses Ever](https://fortune.com/2015/08/24/stock-market-august-decline/)** > > Stocks are rebounding, but it's still been a rough Monday Putin is hardly responsible for oil prices, that’s Saudi Arabia’s and America’s doing if anyone’s, flooding the market. And, so what if it’s all fuck up, who says the world can’t live from fuck up to fuck up ? Zizek’s contention wasn’t that everything would run smoothly, merely that capitalism will get by without democracy. You’re expanding his claim too far. Keep it simple, it might be a fucked up capitalism. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slavoj-zizek-and-the-rise-of-authoritarian-capitalism/736096/112 "2015-11-03T00:40:13Z")
[QUOTE=MrQwertyasd] I say it’s tiddlywinks because nothing really bad has happened. [/QUOTE] And you base this on…what? How do you define ‘really bad’ and what do you base your claim that nothing really happened? > [@](#): > > Crises schmises, and they’re not going to take the world down with them. And as for it being the government to blame, they always say that. Wow. Leaving aside that no one said they were going to take the world down, whatever that means to you (at this point the gods alone know what the hell you mean by basically anything), let’s take a step back. What do YOU think caused the Chinese stock market bubble? What was it? Why did it happen? Do you know, well, anything at all about it? Do you know what it’s ramifications are? Do you know what it’s connection to the nasty real estate bubble they just got out of before this new crisis hit? > [@](#): > > So, pfff, fuck up to fuck up that has made them the world’s largest economy. With the worlds largest percentage of poor. With systemic issues making the whole thing a house of cards. With a quasi-capitalist system bound to what is basically an almost feudal system, with systemic corruption and a burgeoning environmental disaster. Yeah, sounds wonderful. Thing is, you don’t seem to know really anything about it at all. You don’t know enough to know why saying it’s the ‘world’s largest economy’ (which actually [isn’t true](http://money.cnn.com/news/economy/world_economies_gdp/), depending on what you mean by that) really says nothing at all. > [@](#): > > Can we have a bit more fuck up over here please ? Only the truly ignorant would want more of what the Chinese have or are dealing with. And that’s the final disconnect. Like your buddy Zizek, seemingly, you don’t seem to know enough about this subject to debate it, sadly. You THINK you know something, but you really don’t. > [@](#): > > It dwarves anything we do ? Did you really say that ? The US and chums have produced the biggest fuck up ever, which is still ongoing. Worst in the DOWS history. 😛 The Chinese stock market crash lost literally trillions and has caused a ton of issues in China. But you don’t know about any of that, right? Seriously, you don’t have a clue what you are talking about, or what the basic difference is between your linked article and what happened in China…and this is just one thing. We could talk about the environmental damage in China, the water shortages, the way they moved from a housing bubble to a stock market bubble, real wage issues, population unbalance, a population that has been on the edge of basic rebellion for over a decade and getting worse, and a ton more things that, yes, dwarf issues in the US or Europe or any other modern democratic state, but what would be the point when you know nothing, John Snow. > [@](#): > > Putin is hardly responsible for oil prices, that’s Saudi Arabia’s and America’s doing if anyone’s, flooding the market. But, you see, when your entire economy revolves around a single vertical market, when that market is down you are fucked. So, no…Putin can hardly be blamed for the price of oil and gas (though he CAN be blamed for his Crimean/Ukrainian adventure that has caused additional hardships on an already floundering economy), but when you are a one trick pony you kind of are fucked when that trick doesn’t work anymore. > [@](#): > > And, so what if it’s all fuck up, who says the world can’t live from fuck up to fuck up ? Don’t know…who said that? Is that a strawman you just trotted out or has someone said this? I thought we were talking about whether the world was going to the new model authoritarian capitalism since it’s so wonderful, not whether the world could or couldn’t live with…something. > [@](#): > > Zizek’s contention wasn’t that everything would run smoothly, merely that capitalism will get by without democracy. You’re expanding his claim too far. Keep it simple, it might be a fucked up capitalism. Well, why didn’t you just say THAT? Of COURSE capitalism works without democracy…it works in several non-democratic countries, including China. It’s not working optimally, but it works…because it’s basically a better economic system than Zizek’s own favorite. It can be, basically, bolted on just about any sort of governmental system and do what it does best, be a little money making machine for the country it’s implemented in. It works BEST in countries with some sort of democracy, but it will still work in authoritarian hell holes such as China, at least as long as the state doesn’t fuck with it too much. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slavoj-zizek-and-the-rise-of-authoritarian-capitalism/736096/113 "2015-11-03T01:42:58Z")
Nothing really bad happened with the Chinese stock market fail because the world economy hasn’t collapsed. Did you notice the world shaking ? I didn’t. What did it do to you ? Did you lose your job ? Did the shops start closing in your town ? No. Mainly it’s a problem for a minority of Chinese people. What do I think caused it ? I’m not even going to look it up because it’s not relevant to Zizek’s argument - unless you can prove otherwise. China has the world’s largest percentage of poor ? Percentage of what ? And who says ? And so what ? Why does that make a difference to whether capitalism and democracy are divorcing ? Whether it’s the world’s largest anything or not makes no difference either. > [@](#): > > Only the truly ignorant would want more of what the Chinese have or are dealing with. You mean like industrialisation, record breaking growth, massive numbers lifted out of poverty ? Awful, keep those fuck up things away from me. “But, you see, when your entire economy revolves around a single vertical market, when that market is down you are fucked. So, no…Putin can hardly be blamed for the price of oil and gas (though he CAN be blamed for his Crimean/Ukrainian adventure that has caused additional hardships on an already floundering economy), but when you are a one trick pony you kind of are fucked when that trick doesn’t work anymore.” Irrelevant again. you think that capitalism cannot become less linked to democracy in countries that have multiple resources, for some reason ? This is just mindless patriotic chest beating about a war, and nothing to do with the issue at hand. > [@](#): > > Don’t know…who said that? You. If your description of Chinese fuck up isn’t a refutation of Zizek’s idea then again it’s an irrelevance. > [@](#): > > Well, why didn’t you just say THAT? Of COURSE capitalism works without democracy…it works in several non-democratic countries, including China. It’s not working optimally, but it works…because it’s basically a better economic system than Zizek’s own favorite. Admission that capitalism can work without democracy is a start. You’ll have to ask Zizek what his favourite is because I don’t know. I think he’d agree that it works better for producing goods, but that’s not the contention. The contention is that your democracy is not safe merely because it is capitalist, and is likely to be eroding in the future. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slavoj-zizek-and-the-rise-of-authoritarian-capitalism/736096/114 "2015-11-03T01:46:15Z")
> [@](#): > > With the worlds largest percentage of poor. You provide no data for that, and regardless of absolute numbers - > [@](#): > > China has lifted more people out of poverty than anywhere else in the world: its per capita income in increased fivefold between 1990 and 2000, from $200 to $1,000. Between 2000 and 2010, per capita income also rose by the same rate, from $1,000 to $5,000, moving China into the ranks of middle-income countries. Between 1990 and 2005, [China’s progress accounted for more than three-quarters of global poverty reduction](http://www.cn.undp.org/content/dam/china/docs/Publications/UNDP-CH_discussionpaper-MDGPost2015.pdf) terrible fuck-up Let’s compare that with [US government data](https://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/about/overview/) **2014 Highlights** ``` *The data presented here are from the Current Population Survey (CPS), 2015 Annual Social and Economic Supplement (ASEC), the source of official poverty estimates. The CPS ASEC is a sample survey of approximately 100,000 household nationwide. These data reflect conditions in calendar year 2014.* ``` [ul] [li]In 2014, the official poverty rate was 14.8 percent. There were 46.7 million people in poverty. Neither the poverty rate nor the number of people in poverty were statistically different from the 2013 estimates.[/li][li]For the fourth consecutive year, the number of people in poverty at the national level was not statistically different from the previous year’s estimates.[/li][li]The 2014 poverty rate was 2.3 percentage points higher than in 2007, the year before the most recent recession.[/li][li]The 2014 poverty rates for most demographic groups examined were not statistically different from the 2013 rates. Poverty rates went up between 2013 and 2014 for only two groups: people with a bachelor’s degree or more, and married-couple families.[/li][li]For most groups, the number of people in poverty either decreased or did not show a statistically significant change. The number of people in poverty increased for unrelated individuals, people aged 18 to 64 with a disability, people with at least a bachelor’s degree and married-couple families.[/li][li]The poverty rate in 2014 for children under age 18 was 21.1 percent. The poverty rate for people aged 18 to 64 was 13.5 percent, while the rate for people aged 65 and older was 10.0 percent. None of these poverty rates were statistically different from the 2013 estimates[/li][/ul] So while China is lifting millions out of poverty, the USA is doing nothing or going backwards, and it’s similar for the UK and many European countries. ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slavoj-zizek-and-the-rise-of-authoritarian-capitalism/736096/115 "2015-11-03T02:02:05Z")
…it’s similar for the UK and many European countries. And that’s why there are distinct threats to democracy because economic failure leads to the sort of polarisation you have in Greece and Ukraine. The US adventure in Ukraine is, of course, fronted by nazis, and your government, with some exceptions, has had little qualm in supporting them. It never does bother itself with things like that. If Europe lurches towards authoritarian capitalism the USA won’t be bothered one bit, it will rather see it as good for business. In general. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slavoj-zizek-and-the-rise-of-authoritarian-capitalism/736096/116 "2015-11-03T04:19:05Z")
[QUOTE=MrQwertyasd] So while China is lifting millions out of poverty, the USA is doing nothing or going backwards, and it’s similar for the UK and many European countries. Today 01:42 AM [/QUOTE] This is the equivalent of saying that while the fastest man in the world is only improving a few seconds or maybe losing a few seconds off his time, XT, who ran a 89 minute 100 yard dash a year ago is now able to do it in only 60 minutes after giving up the beer and doing some training. 😛 Look at how much better I am, cutting 10’s of minutes off my time, while the fastest guy is only able to shave a few seconds or even getting slower…XT for the win!!! ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slavoj-zizek-and-the-rise-of-authoritarian-capitalism/736096/117 "2015-11-03T07:12:02Z")
> [@XT](#): > > This is the equivalent of saying that while the fastest man in the world is only improving a few seconds or maybe losing a few seconds off his time, XT, who ran a 89 minute 100 yard dash a year ago is now able to do it in only 60 minutes after giving up the beer and doing some training. 😛 Look at how much better I am, cutting 10’s of minutes off my time, while the fastest guy is only able to shave a few seconds or even getting slower…XT for the win!!! Predictable. But they’ve been improving while the West has been going backwards. You point out China’s environmental problems, as if the West has nothing to do with that. Externalised cost. Do you want your cheap goodies or not ? You’ve been factually incorrect in claiming “there isn’t a lot of outside investment allowed.” Actually it has the highest in the world. You claim that China is somehow mired in poverty due to the system, actually it’s broken the record on poverty alleviation - authoritarianism and all. the next 5 year plan is to eliminate poverty by 2020 - sounds unfeasible but at least they have that as a goal. You seem to think that Zizek is cheerleading the loss of democracy despite it being his pessimistic outlook. You’ve completely avoided the fact that the 2008 financial disaster took place in democracies, and dwarfs the Chinese bubble popping. But you’ve dodged the actual question with a supposedly virtuoso display of knowledge of all things economic, and haven’t given any reason why the future shouldn’t be authoritarian rather than one of ever expanding, capitalist driven democracy. Those are just some of your malfeasances. Just cut and paste from here and you’ll be fine [http://www.wsj.com/articles/at-the-end-of-history-still-stands-democracy-1402080661](http://www.wsj.com/articles/at-the-end-of-history-still-stands-democracy-1402080661) ---
**Author:** ![MrQwertyasd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9d8465/32.png) [@MrQwertyasd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrQwertyasd)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slavoj-zizek-and-the-rise-of-authoritarian-capitalism/736096/118 "2015-11-03T07:17:50Z")
More Zizek fun [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/Gw8LPn4irao/maxresdefault.jpg "Lecture: Living in the End Times According to Slavoj Zizek (vpro backlight)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw8LPn4irao) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slavoj-zizek-and-the-rise-of-authoritarian-capitalism/736096/119 "2015-11-03T14:52:02Z")
[QUOTE=MrQwertyasd] Predictable. But they’ve been improving while the West has been going backwards. [/QUOTE] As is your non-response. Oh well, not like anyone is taking this ‘debate’ seriously. > [@](#): > > You point out China’s environmental problems, as if the West has nothing to do with that. Externalised cost. Do you want your cheap goodies or not ? Because we are forcing the Chinese to make all those goods, right? And forcing them to adulterate their environment to do so? Yeah, right. 😛 > [@](#): > > You claim that China is somehow mired in poverty due to the system, actually it’s broken the record on poverty alleviation - authoritarianism and all. the next 5 year plan is to eliminate poverty by 2020 - sounds unfeasible but at least they have that as a goal. No, I didn’t claim that. That’s YOUR strawman. I said that China has a large percentage of the worlds poor. They also have a large percentage of the total population. What I DID claim is that China’s system holds the Chinese back, that it’s that authoritarian/totalitarian system you seem to be all gooey about that is making China less prosperous across the board than they could be. The CCP has over and over again proved they are a bunch of inept fools who tend to drive their economy from one extreme to the next. > [@](#): > > You’ve been factually incorrect in claiming “there isn’t a lot of outside investment allowed.” Actually it has the highest in the world. And you base this on WHAT?? You don’t seem to understand the difference between when I build a manufacturing plant in your country and when I invest my money in one of your countries companies. This statement of yours is so far off the scale of ridiculousness it’s hardly worth addressing, but even a cursory Google search reveals that China is only just starting to open up their companies to very limited foreign investment…which is why when their stock market melted down it didn’t affect YOU, which seems to be the only metric you understand. See, foreigners aren’t allowed (or weren’t [until recently](http://www.wsj.com/articles/china-looking-to-ease-foreign-investment-rules-on-internet-companies-1421868551)) allowed to directly invest in Chinese companies. Hell, even when Alibaba went IPO, a lot of inverters didn’t seem to realize they weren’t investing directly in Alibaba but instead investing in a secondary holding company that wasn’t Chinese. From the link: > [@](#): > > China Looking to Ease Foreign-Investment Rules Covering Internet Companies > > BEIJING—The Chinese government is proposing to regulate a murky corporate structure that has allowed China’s Internet giants to court foreign shareholders. The move could effectively ease a much-flouted ban on foreign investment in sensitive industries. > > Under new draft rules issued this week, Beijing appears to be giving tacit approval to the billions of dollars foreigners have invested via that structure in off-limit sectors—primarily the Internet and education. The structure, known as a variable interest entity, or VIE, is used by companies like e-commerce giant Alibaba Group Holding Ltd. and video-streaming company Youku Tudou Inc. It lets foreigners invest indirectly in companies in banned industries without taking a direct stake. Here’s the bit about Alibaba: > [@](#): > > The workaround has been crucial to many of China’s biggest companies: Without it, Alibaba’s $25 billion initial public offering last year on the New York Stock Exchange wouldn’t have been possible. > > Devised by financial advisers in the late 1990s, VIEs get around restrictions on foreign investment by setting up two entities, one based in China and one abroad. The Chinese entity holds the permits and licenses that foreigners aren’t allowed to own but that are required to do business in China. So, let’s see a fucking cite from you on this one thing. You have yet to provide anything to back up your statements which are often silly and cryptic, but let’s see a cite showing that investment in China and Chinese companies is ‘Actually it has the highest in the world’. > [@](#): > > But you’ve dodged the actual question with a supposedly virtuoso display of knowledge of all things economic, and haven’t given any reason why the future shouldn’t be authoritarian rather than one of ever expanding, capitalist driven democracy. Horseshit. I’ve directly answered this question repeatedly. Simply put, the examples of authoritarian capitalism shown in China or Russia, for anyone who has even a basic understanding of the issues pretty clearly shows that it’s the authoritarian aspects that are holding them back, not pushing them forward. > [@](#): > > Those are just some of your malfeasances. > > Just cut and paste from here and you’ll be fine You should give it a try yourself…perhaps try and cut and paste what you think are the relevant parts instead of drive by links and Just Watch This!! YouTube gurgle, along with sprays of horseshit and pony dust in loo of debate. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2015, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slavoj-zizek-and-the-rise-of-authoritarian-capitalism/736096/120 "2015-11-03T18:15:01Z")
> [@MrQwertyasd](#): > > So when WILL we see Microsoft and Merck’s presence in china bring about a democracy ? there is not anyone serious in political economy who thinks there is the mechanical relationship, only that the economic growth that is assisted by the capitalism (the lower c kind) has a tendency to see the political forces that ask for more of the political space, and is less dependent on the central authoritarians for their living, so more ready to challenge that. It is certainly the case even in the china that there is more claims and agitation for things that an urbanized more wealthy population cares about like the pollution. the political theory is this tends to push towards some kind of democratization. That is the theory. > [@XT](#): > > As is your non-response. Oh well, not like anyone is taking this ‘debate’ seriously. True, it seems like a performance to amuse himself and get reactions, but he keeps to the high tone that they are so proud of having achieved in gd. > [@](#): > > Horseshit. I’ve directly answered this question repeatedly. Simply put, the examples of authoritarian capitalism shown in China or Russia, for anyone who has even a basic understanding of the issues pretty clearly shows that it’s the authoritarian aspects that are holding them back, not pushing them forward. specifically it is the problems of the poor rule of law and the hyper-dominance of the connections over rules, things that authoritarianism tends to promote, that undermine. > [@](#): > > Just Watch This!! YouTube gurgle, along with sprays of horseshit and pony dust in loo of debate. it is more work for his posting of the deliberately provocative message to generate the maximum of a scene… for his statement > [@](#): > > So while China is lifting millions out of poverty, the USA is doing nothing or going backwards, and it’s similar for the UK and many European countries. of course this is a silly - the short term variations around the high base contre the variations off of the low base are not comparable. > [@Enterprise](#): > > Good, so, just to make sure: you will not debate this issue with me, even though you assert it is a slam dunk for you? Try not to create too obvious straw men. I asserted nothing about what this issue is for me in ease or in diffcculty, which is obvious to anyone who read this. This game of yours is boring as are the rhetoric dressed in pompous language and faux philosophizing. I see no point in a ‘debate’ given the other thread that touched on the exact same subject and the obvious lack of any impact of that discussion. And that the subject is like debating the Phlogiston theory… a waste of time. > [@](#): > > Say, exploitation without the labor theory of value? That’s not so hard, we coulf totally do it. You can start such a thread about the economic concept or the political concept of exploitation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slavoj-zizek-and-the-rise-of-authoritarian-capitalism/736096.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slavoj-zizek-and-the-rise-of-authoritarian-capitalism/736096.md?page=7)