# Slimy men and their slimy words. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 21, 2017, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slimy-men-and-their-slimy-words/802333 "2017-11-21T23:23:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Claude\_Remains](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/898d66/32.png) [@Claude\_Remains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claude_Remains)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slimy-men-and-their-slimy-words/802333/21 "2017-11-22T04:36:58Z")
At this point I think its become “Hey ladies, let’s go to the quarry and throw stuff down there”. ---
**Author:** ![2nd\_Law](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/f475e1/32.png) [@2nd\_Law](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2nd_Law)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slimy-men-and-their-slimy-words/802333/22 "2017-11-22T04:47:16Z")
I hope the OP comes back to clarify regarding Moore. And let’s hear what he has to say about Trump as well. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slimy-men-and-their-slimy-words/802333/23 "2017-11-22T05:51:16Z")
Let’s focus on the progress that’s being made and not how far we still need to go. ---
**Author:** ![Claude\_Remains](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/898d66/32.png) [@Claude\_Remains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claude_Remains)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slimy-men-and-their-slimy-words/802333/24 "2017-11-22T06:36:58Z")
Too bad folks aren’t this pissed off and talking about events in their own lives instead of jumping on the bandwagon. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slimy-men-and-their-slimy-words/802333/25 "2017-11-22T07:15:58Z")
Thanks, **Claude**. It’s always such a relief when a man comes along and explains that a woman is doing her anger all wrong. I’m sure **elbows** will be just super interested to know that she doesn’t really mean it, she’s just feeling angry because it’s the fad. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slimy-men-and-their-slimy-words/802333/26 "2017-11-22T09:24:53Z")
Well shit, **OP** , let’s say someone accuses you of something you maybe only sorta remember doing a decade or three ago (an accusation that could lead to jail time, and where the accusation alone is usually enough to sink a public career), and you remember that kinda differently. Care to word an apology that doesn’t sound weaselly as fuck but also doesn’t admit to something you don’t believe you should admit to, and which you remember differently? Also: > [@](#): > > And no one believes your horseshit. Any more than they believe it was only a few times, or wasn’t 100% exploitive in every possible way. You attained both power and success and this is what you chose to use it for. CHOSE. You don’t get to back away from that reality you scumbag. Fuck everything about this. Not everyone is Harvey Weinstein or Bill Cosby. Not everyone who pushes things too far _understands_ that they’re pushing things too far. I believe Franken when he says he remembers it differently, and thought that the photo was funny. I also believe that that could have just as easily happened with _no_ power differential, and indeed, that worse happens on a regular basis without _anyone_ throwing a fuss, because it’s all in good fun. This is one fucking step up from the [insane screed by the lead singer of Pinegrove](https://www.facebook.com/Pinegroveband/posts/10155748505559774), where he ruefully begs for apology because he used his charisma and his position as a celebrity to encourage people to sleep with him - as if fucking a groupie who turns up literally _begging_ for it was the same thing as sexual assault. I want to laugh at that, but I’m worried he might actually be _serious_. People make mistakes. People misread situations, and make moves which they may have thought were funny or appropriate, but which were _really_ not. It can take a long fucking time for people to realize, “Oh shit, that thing I did years ago was _super not okay_” - assuming they didn’t forget it altogether. People do evil things in odd circumstances. Does one bad joke, one misinterpretation of consent, or hell, one _accusation_ of any of these things qualify as enough to destroy someone’s career? Maybe we should just shoot anyone who gets accused of sexual assault and be done with it. Or maybe just those who decide they want to defend themselves from allegations. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slimy-men-and-their-slimy-words/802333/27 "2017-11-22T09:58:26Z")
WTF, BPC? It would be one thing to object a bit, but you are pulling out full righteous indignation. In defense of the sexual harasser. That’s not up in the air: he admitted to it. You are pulling out the rape apologist bullshit. It’s not just one mistake, and, no, we’re not remotely going too far. You cited a guy who was showing **empathy**. He was apologizing to those he may have hurt. And you are pushing that as some sort of bad thing. That’s ridiculous. And it has literally nothing to do with what is being discussed here. We are discussing sexual harassment. Which Franken did. Every time you defend one of these assholes, you are making it that much harder for the actual victims to come forward. I admit her conservative politics made me suspicious at first. But it seems that the incident really happened. And now it is Franken’s responsibility to pay for it. He needs to get out of the way, to help his party and prevent the right from attacking all sexual accusations as partisan. He does not need to be trying to save face and survive. If he is truly sorry, he will resign. Words mean nothing compared to actions. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slimy-men-and-their-slimy-words/802333/28 "2017-11-22T10:09:28Z")
> [@2nd\_Law](#): > > I hope the OP comes back to clarify regarding Moore. And let’s hear what he has to say about Trump as well. Have either of those issued an apology for their actions? Because if not, I hardly see how this is relevant to _this_ thread, or anything other than stupid whataboutism. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slimy-men-and-their-slimy-words/802333/29 "2017-11-22T10:12:32Z")
[Dozens of women from SNL crew stand up for Al Franken](http://money.cnn.com/2017/11/21/media/snl-women-al-franken/index.html) This in no way excuses what he did, but no way is Franken in the same category as the others named by the OP. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slimy-men-and-their-slimy-words/802333/30 "2017-11-22T10:16:34Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Fuck everything about this. Not everyone is Harvey Weinstein or Bill Cosby. Not everyone who pushes things too far _understands_ that they’re pushing things too far. I believe Franken when he says he remembers it differently, and thought that the photo was funny. I also believe that that could have just as easily happened with _no_ power differential, and indeed, that worse happens on a regular basis without _anyone_ throwing a fuss, because it’s all in good fun. You know what, my previous post doesn’t really reflect the worst of what you said, so I’m going to have another go. What the goddamned fuck? Even without a power differential, what Franken did was sexual assault. SEXUAL ASSAULT IS NOT ALL IN GOOD FUN. Franken forced his tongue down this girls throat in a kissing rehearsal that she didn’t consent to. He wore her down, but she still did not consent to the tongue. He violated her consent. Yes, worse things happen in Hollywood. THAT IS WHY WE ARE HAVING THIS HAPPEN NOW! These things are wrong, and we need to expose them and get rid of them. That there are worse things out there is never, ever, EVER an excuse. There are murderers, who are worse than thieves. There are torturers, who are worse than someone who murders people quickly. There are even things out there worse than rape. Seriously, dude. WTF? What has happened to you that you defend these horrible things? Is it really that blog you seem to be so devoted to now? Are you being recruited into the anti-feminist, anti-SJW right wing? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slimy-men-and-their-slimy-words/802333/31 "2017-11-22T10:24:27Z")
I don’t 100% agree with **elbows**. Apologies are definitely necessary, for one thing. But the fact that people use apologies to save face is annoying, and having it on this particular issue can make that annoyance rise to infuriating. The point of an apology is to try to make amends. It is not to try and save your career. The only thing that can save it is if you go away and show real remorse. An apology is only the start of that. It is also ridiculous for Franken to be trying to save himself at this point. He is just giving ammunition to Republicans to claim that we don’t police our own and put politics first. There is no downside to him stepping down for the party or the country, since he can easily be replaced with another Democrat. The only downside is to him personally, and good people need to put others first. Sure, if you didn’t do it, then say that, and be confident there will be proof. I’m fine with that. But, if you did it, apologize and go the fuck away. Don’t try to minimize it. And show with your actions that you actually mean it. Honestly, that has a lot to do with why I gave Louis CK props. He voluntarily shut down a whole lot of his stuff. He did essentially go away. Maybe his apology isn’t the best, but I haven’t heard from him at all after that. Ironically, I think that might be the thing that could save his career. But I don’t know, and I sure am not going to make excuses for him. I’m not going to pretend everyone does that stuff or “worse.” Fuck that bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slimy-men-and-their-slimy-words/802333/32 "2017-11-22T10:29:53Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > WTF, BPC? It would be one thing to object a bit, but you are pulling out full righteous indignation. In defense of the sexual harasser. That’s not up in the air: he admitted to it. It’s because this attitude screams “witch hunt”. Men aren’t allowed to defend themselves against allegations of sexual harassment. Men aren’t allowed to dispute that that’s what really happened. Apparently even Franken’s apology (which was about as non-weaselly as you can get without falling to the floor, immediately confessing to everything, and committing seppuku) was not good enough, and just slimy words. The pendulum can swing too far. > [@](#): > > You are pulling out the rape apologist bullshit. It’s not just one mistake, and, no, we’re not remotely going too far. You cited a guy who was showing **empathy**. He was apologizing to those he may have hurt. And you are pushing that as some sort of bad thing. That’s ridiculous. Dude… If you think that screed is reasonable (or sane), you’re nuts. _Andrea Dworkin_ would think that was nuts. > [@](#): > > And it has literally nothing to do with what is being discussed here. We are discussing sexual harassment. Which Franken did. Every time you defend one of these assholes, you are making it that much harder for the actual victims to come forward. Okay, fine. So let’s _not_ defend the accused. How do you think the “doesn’t pick up false positives” aspect plays into this? I’m asking; I’m not sure. I think you’re liable to lose a lot of allies - particularly powerful and influential allies who have a lot to lose - when the response to entirely reasonable and decent apologies, or even plausible defenses, is “Fuck your slimy bullshit, nobody believes you, I hope you never see the light of day again”. That’s not a crusade for justice. That’s a witch hunt. Fuck serial abusers. No question about that. Al Franken _should_ get out of the senate. No disagreement there either. But let’s not turn this into a witch hunt. Let’s not pretend that there’s no defense good enough, no apology sufficient, and no forgiveness possible. And let’s not pretend that trying to defend oneself against allegations makes one _more_ guilty. Down that road lies madness. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slimy-men-and-their-slimy-words/802333/33 "2017-11-22T10:34:16Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > He needs to get out of the way, to help his party and prevent the right from attacking all sexual accusations as partisan. He does not need to be trying to save face and survive. > > If he is truly sorry, he will resign. Words mean nothing compared to actions. And meanwhile the guilty GOP members will continue to deny serial harassment, pussy-grabbing and the rape of 14 year school girls and continue in their positions of power despite much greater offenses. Trump said it was worse for a Democrat to get into office than to re-elect pedophile Moore. Trump said being a Democrat was worse than being a child-rapist. The GOP wants to use this to drive as many of their opposition from office as possible, they don’t give a flying fuck about the victims, they are willing to sacrifice the victims - female, male, and child - for more and more power. How do you think that is going to end? Al Franken shouldn’t resign until the much more guilty resign. ---
**Author:** ![Covfefe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ee7513/32.png) [@Covfefe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Covfefe)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slimy-men-and-their-slimy-words/802333/34 "2017-11-22T10:47:52Z")
> [@2nd\_Law](#): > > I hope the OP comes back to clarify regarding Moore. And let’s hear what he has to say about Trump as well. Both Dems at the time of the alleged indiscretions which is something they’ve since atoned for. The left is devouring their own. They finally turned the protest chants and hashtags into real world activity and this is what happened. ---
**Author:** ![Bullitt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bullitt/32/5725_2.png) [@Bullitt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bullitt)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slimy-men-and-their-slimy-words/802333/35 "2017-11-22T11:09:15Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Nah it just means he didn’t act shitty to every woman he met. Yeah? Well neither did Bill Cosby. I think. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slimy-men-and-their-slimy-words/802333/36 "2017-11-22T11:39:51Z")
> [@Claude\_Remains](#): > > Too bad folks aren’t this pissed off and talking about events in their own lives instead of jumping on the bandwagon. > [@Merneith](#): > > Thanks, **Claude**. It’s always such a relief when a man comes along and explains that a woman is doing her anger all wrong. I’m sure **elbows** will be just super interested to know that she doesn’t really mean it, she’s just feeling angry because it’s the fad. Don’t bother with him - [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20617044&postcount=10) demonstrates he values the egos and feelings of men over the physical safety of women. He’s the embodiment of “Men fear women will laugh at them. Women fear men will kill them.” ---
**Author:** ![Staggerlee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/staggerlee/32/3134_2.png) [@Staggerlee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Staggerlee)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slimy-men-and-their-slimy-words/802333/37 "2017-11-22T13:07:03Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > … And no one believes your horseshit. Any more than they believe it was only a few times, or wasn’t 100% exploitive in every possible way… This is apparently addressed to all the accused, with all their flimsy excuses, from the outright serial rapist to the sometime slime-ball. Is anyone who is accused of any sexual impropriety necessarily 100% exploitative in every possible way? Seems very binary. Am I now included in the rapist category for even suggesting there could be any nuance at all in all this? ---
**Author:** ![stretch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@stretch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stretch)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slimy-men-and-their-slimy-words/802333/38 "2017-11-22T15:05:29Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > This is one fucking step up from the [insane screed by the lead singer of Pinegrove](https://www.facebook.com/Pinegroveband/posts/10155748505559774), where he ruefully begs for apology because he used his charisma and his position as a celebrity to encourage people to sleep with him - as if fucking a groupie who turns up literally _begging_ for it was the same thing as sexual assault. I want to laugh at that, but I’m worried he might actually be _serious_. Snipped the rest of your post. This guy could be completely full of shit–I can only go by what he says, and I’m not chasing him all over the internet to find out more. I’m feeling apology fatigue, so I’m taking all of these “I’m so sorry, I just realized, I’ll be better” stories with a whole block o’salt. That being said, I think you are misrepresenting this dude’s post. Reflecting on the power dynamic between a star and a fan is not equating fucking a groupie with sexual assault. Self-reflection is generally seen as a good thing. Realizing that sizing up female fans based on whether you can fuck them is shitty behavior is a good thing. Realizing that the person you are interacting with may have a different view of the interaction is a good thing, too. If he also realizes that is applies to men in his life as well–that dude that lets you treat him crappy because you are a star is feeling something similar–that would also be a good thing. It is a little dramatic, as can be expected from a performer. The timing seems a bit jumping-on-the-bandwagonish; otherwise I’m not feeling your hate for this guy’s message. Also, not that you are going to care, but lately you are really pissing me off with your devotion to Scott Alexander and his stupid blog. Do you get paid by the click for that shit? I’m starting to believe that if I want your opinion I should skip your post and just read what he tells you to think today. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slimy-men-and-their-slimy-words/802333/39 "2017-11-22T15:45:08Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Yes, Al Franklin. And Charlie Rose. And Lassiter, Weinstein, Spacey. All of them. > > EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. Amusing that the itemization of “EVERY. SINGLE. ONE.” omits all right-wingers, even the two top politicians with credible allegations of child rape against them. I follow _issues_ rather than _personalities_ but find it pathetic that a comic who used tongue 1 time (once) during the dress rehearsal of a staged kiss is condemned, while a major harasser (and accused child rapist) is elected President. ---
**Author:** ![Claude\_Remains](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/898d66/32.png) [@Claude\_Remains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claude_Remains)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2017, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slimy-men-and-their-slimy-words/802333/40 "2017-11-22T16:28:37Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Don’t bother with him - [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=20617044&postcount=10) demonstrates he values the egos and feelings of men over the physical safety of women. He’s the embodiment of “Men fear women will laugh at them. Women fear men will kill them.” That post demonstrates the fact that I was propositioned by a female manager at work and blew the whistle only to be teased and ridiculed by male co-workers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slimy-men-and-their-slimy-words/802333.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slimy-men-and-their-slimy-words/802333.md?page=3)