# Slot Machines - WTF? Seriously, WTF??? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 21, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slot-machines-wtf-seriously-wtf/616435 "2012-03-21T20:14:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slot-machines-wtf-seriously-wtf/616435/61 "2012-03-22T14:38:41Z")
**BoBettie** , nothing you’ve said in that post makes any sense. “Good money after bad?” It’s all bad once it goes into the machine. “Recoup a loss?” If you bet a dollar, it doesn’t matter if you won or lost previously, especially not days before. Separating your wins from your “spendies” doesn’t make any difference at all, and saving money by quitting doesn’t change the fact that it would be _even better_ to quit _even earlier_. If you’ve won on slots, it’s because you’re lucky, not because you’re good. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slot-machines-wtf-seriously-wtf/616435/62 "2012-03-22T14:42:34Z")
**Eonwe** - You are correct. Each spin is a separate action that has no relationship to the spin before or the spin after. I’m just saying that after a few million spins, you will have an “average” frequency. Within any personal experience, of course, no such thing will occur. “Hot streaks” are just observer bias/wishful thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Moonlitherial](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4bbf92/32.png) [@Moonlitherial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moonlitherial)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slot-machines-wtf-seriously-wtf/616435/63 "2012-03-22T14:47:21Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > It’s all bad once it goes into the machine. > . That depends on what you expect to get out of it. If you’re willing to pay $X for the entertainment of sitting in a casino and spinning the wheels with no expectation of winning, there’s nothing wrong with that. It’s no different than sitting at the hotel bar buying overpriced drinks with no expectation of picking up the hot guy at the end of the bar. > [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > If you’ve won on slots, it’s because you’re lucky, not because you’re good. This one I’ll give you, 100% correct. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slot-machines-wtf-seriously-wtf/616435/64 "2012-03-22T14:52:31Z")
Part of the entertainment of slots is watching all the people that think what they do will influence the spin. They will wipe the screen, shake their lucky charms, speak in tongues, do whatever in an attempt to contravene basic math. ---
**Author:** ![Wheelz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wheelz/32/5718_2.png) [@Wheelz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheelz)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slot-machines-wtf-seriously-wtf/616435/65 "2012-03-22T15:06:16Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > **BoBettie** , nothing you’ve said in that post makes any sense. “Good money after bad?” It’s all bad once it goes into the machine. “Recoup a loss?” If you bet a dollar, it doesn’t matter if you won or lost previously, especially not days before. Separating your wins from your “spendies” doesn’t make any difference at all, and saving money by quitting doesn’t change the fact that it would be _even better_ to quit _even earlier_. Sure it makes sense. Say I budget $100 for slot play and put it in my right pocket, and I stick it in the machine $20 at a time. I happen to hit a $150 win on the first 20, so I cash that out and put it in my left pocket. I’m now free to play the other $80 in my right pocket with the knowledge thet I will be up at the end of the day no matter what. So okay, sure, if I then lose the $80 I’m worse off than if I’d just quit with $230; I concede this. But I’m still $50 up on the day, and I had some fun with it, so I’m not complaining. **BoBettie** ’s point is that most people will simply gamble away the $150 as well as the $80. > [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > If you’ve won on slots, it’s because you’re lucky, not because you’re good. Or because you knew when to walk away. It’s not a given, but there’s a fairly good chance that \*at some point \*you’ll have more money than you started with. It just takes a little discipline to subsequently hang on to it. ---
**Author:** ![BoBettie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4af34b/32.png) [@BoBettie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BoBettie)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slot-machines-wtf-seriously-wtf/616435/66 "2012-03-22T15:31:24Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > **BoBettie** , nothing you’ve said in that post makes any sense. “Good money after bad?” It’s all bad once it goes into the machine. “Recoup a loss?” If you bet a dollar, it doesn’t matter if you won or lost previously, especially not days before. Separating your wins from your “spendies” doesn’t make any difference at all, and saving money by quitting doesn’t change the fact that it would be _even better_ to quit _even earlier_. > > If you’ve won on slots, it’s because you’re lucky, not because you’re good. I never said I was good. I am lucky and I manage what winnings I have well. That was my point. ---
**Author:** ![BoBettie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4af34b/32.png) [@BoBettie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BoBettie)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slot-machines-wtf-seriously-wtf/616435/67 "2012-03-22T15:32:59Z")
> [@Wheelz](#): > > Sure it makes sense. Say I budget $100 for slot play and put it in my right pocket, and I stick it in the machine $20 at a time. I happen to hit a $150 win on the first 20, so I cash that out and put it in my left pocket. I’m now free to play the other $80 in my right pocket with the knowledge thet I will be up at the end of the day no matter what. So okay, sure, if I then lose the $80 I’m worse off than if I’d just quit with $230; I concede this. But I’m still $50 up on the day, and I had some fun with it, so I’m not complaining. **BoBettie** ’s point is that most people will simply gamble away the $150 as well as the $80. > > Or because you knew when to walk away. It’s not a given, but there’s a fairly good chance that \*at some point \*you’ll have more money than you started with. It just takes a little discipline to subsequently hang on to it. Thanks for getting what I was trying to say. ---
**Author:** ![Algorithm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/algorithm/32/12204_2.png) [@Algorithm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algorithm)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slot-machines-wtf-seriously-wtf/616435/68 "2012-03-22T15:36:41Z")
> [@Wheelz](#): > > Or because you knew when to walk away. It’s not a given, but there’s a fairly good chance that \*at some point \*you’ll have more money than you started with. It just takes a little discipline to subsequently hang on to it. The most likely outcome is that you never have more than you started with, so “discipline” with regards to actually playing the machine is irrelevant. If you’ve ever won money from a slot machine, the odds are overwhelming that you’ve previously played enough to have many times negated your winnings. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slot-machines-wtf-seriously-wtf/616435/69 "2012-03-22T15:43:59Z")
Wheelz absolutely nailed it. All gambling is about money management and entertainment value. Lots of people find slots – especially the new video slots with bonus games and tons of bells & whistles – fun and harmless and occasionally profitable. If you don’t find slots entertaining: each to their own, and nobody’s holding a gun to your head. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slot-machines-wtf-seriously-wtf/616435/70 "2012-03-22T15:46:49Z")
> [@Algorithm](#): > > The most likely outcome is that you never have more than you started with, so “discipline” with regards to actually playing the machine is irrelevant. If you’ve ever won money from a slot machine, the odds are overwhelming that you’ve previously played enough to have many times negated your winnings. You’re confusing long-term expectations with short-term outcomes. If two players spin a slot a million times, both will wind up with 96% of what they started with. If one of those players gets up and walks away every time he’s ahead, he’ll probably die of old age (and with \>100% in his pocket) before he gets to his millionth spin. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slot-machines-wtf-seriously-wtf/616435/71 "2012-03-22T15:50:47Z")
Agree with you totally-I think these machines induce a kind of mental stupor. As others have pointed out, people don’t want the complexity of board games-they want to sit and pull levers all day. Years ago, I had a friend who claimed that slot machines were programmed to make small payouts early in play-so if you watched people, and timed the interval from when they stopped playing…then resumed play, you could make a small positive return-he claimed the period was about 8-10 minutes. He once blew an afternoon in a casino doing this-he made about $300. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slot-machines-wtf-seriously-wtf/616435/72 "2012-03-22T15:57:41Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Years ago, I had a friend who claimed that slot machines were programmed to make small payouts early in play-so if you watched people, and timed the interval from when they stopped playing..then resumed play, you could make a small positive return-he claimed the period was about 8-10 minutes. He once blew an afternoon in a casino doing this-he made about $300. There are lots of myth, legend, and superstition about slots. Somebody gets lucky and thinks he has a system, and it makes as much sense as “I had chocolate ice cream and then won $500 in a slot, ergo chocolate ice cream makes jackpots appear.” The facts are: all spins are independent, so a machine can’t be “hot” or “cold” or “due”; in the same way that if a coin comes up heads 5 times in a row, it’s not “due” to come up tails. The payout rate is calculated for banks of machines; individual machine payout rates can vary. So the machine in a particular location may pay off better (on average over time) than its identical neighbor. ---
**Author:** ![obfusciatrist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/4af34b/32.png) [@obfusciatrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obfusciatrist)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slot-machines-wtf-seriously-wtf/616435/73 "2012-03-22T16:01:21Z")
I certainly enjoy the “incomprehensible” machines a lot more than the classic three-reel, single line 7-7-7 ones. Here’s why I gamble: To find out what happens. Winning or losing doesn’t really enter into the picture because I am disciplined enough that I never gamble money that particularly matters to me. I just want to see what happens, and wining means I’ll get to do that more times than losing. I don’t think there is anything I can do to impact the outcome of a slot machine (and yes, I agree that most table games are just slower versions of slot machines when played correctly). I don’t think “hot” or “cold” is anything other than statistical clumping. I don’t think that seeing JACKPOT - JACKPOT - JACKPOT - JACKPOT - TURD is any closer to actually having won a jackpot than JACKPOT - TURD - TURD - TURD - TURD. So, what I am interested in is maximizing the number of possible outcomes from a bet and the money is just there to give me some reason to care about the outcome (but again, not so much money that I can be damaged by the outcome). Similarly, even when it isn’t for money, joining a pick 'em league for football makes me suddenly care who wins that week’s Atlanta-Jacksonville game. So the modern complex machines provide better variety of outcome in the short term (in the long term it is the same: I’m out of money for that session). And I enjoy that. Until I don’t. Then I stop. Slots aren’t my preferred casino RNG, but my wife likes them and it isn’t unpleasant to sit as adjacent machines, pushing buttons and just talking. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slot-machines-wtf-seriously-wtf/616435/74 "2012-03-22T16:04:04Z")
I had a friend who worked on slots in Vegas. He explained to me that those 98% payback ads are for the dollar (at that time) slots, and then, only when all the lines were used. So it was really like a 5 dollar bet. The lower the machines bet wise, the lower the payback percentage wise. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slot-machines-wtf-seriously-wtf/616435/75 "2012-03-22T16:12:20Z")
> [@Wheelz](#): > > I happen to hit a $150 …I will be up at the end of the day no matter what. … > > Or because you knew when to walk away. It’s not a given, but there’s a fairly good chance that \*at some point \*you’ll have more money than you started with. It just takes a little discipline to subsequently hang on to it. Yes, you’re correct. If you happen to hit, you’ll be up. And if you don’t gamble it, you’ll still be up “at the end of the day”. If you happen to hit. Guess what happens more often than not? Look, all BoBettie is describing is a system where you force yourself to quit. The system isn’t a “money management” system, it’s simply betting less. The key to the whole thing is that you’re playing less slots at the end of the day. So like I said, I have an even better system- don’t play at all. Then your EV is 0. Putting money in different pockets isn’t changing the EV of each spin. > [@BoBettie](#): > > I never said I was good. I am lucky and I manage what winnings I have well. That was my point. You don’t manage winnings well any more than I do by not playing at all. In fact, I’m managing it better than you are. So your system lets you make, say, 200 spins. You’d manage those winnings better with a system- any system- that makes you spin 199 times. Or 198. Or 197…or 0. > [@jsc1953](#): > > If two players spin a slot a million times, both will wind up with 96% of what they started with. If one of those players gets up and walks away every time he’s ahead, he’ll probably die of old age (and with \>100% in his pocket) before he gets to his millionth spin. This is a common error in gambling math. You don’t end with 96% of what you started with (assuming the rake is 4%.) You end up with 96% of what you bet overall. Those numbers are only the same if you started with the same amount that a million spins would cost. Winning early to fund later spins doesn’t count. But yes, the guy that walks away when he wins is going to do better over time…because he stopped playing. Playing less, as I said, is always an improvement. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slot-machines-wtf-seriously-wtf/616435/76 "2012-03-22T16:17:49Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > So like I said, I have an even better system- don’t play at all. Then your EV is 0. Putting money in different pockets isn’t changing the EV of each spin. Sure, but let’s start with the assumption that we’re in a casino to have fun. Person A plays slots all day, gets to say “woohoo! bonus game!” several times, and walks away even. Person B stays in his room watching C-SPAN and walks away even. I think Person A had a better day. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slot-machines-wtf-seriously-wtf/616435/77 "2012-03-22T16:26:08Z")
What if person A was killed by a volcanic eruption from a previously undiscovered volcano under the casino, and person B gets an army of Swedish hookers sent to his room by mistake? ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slot-machines-wtf-seriously-wtf/616435/78 "2012-03-22T16:28:44Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Look, all BoBettie is describing is a system where you force yourself to quit. The system isn’t a “money management” system, it’s simply betting less. The key to the whole thing is that you’re playing less slots at the end of the day. Yepper. It’s stunning that anyone can convince themselves otherwise. No matter when you start or stop, if you play 100,000 pulls on a machine that returns 90% you’re going to drop an average of $10,000. You can spread it out over 20 days or 20 years – it doesn’t matter. If there was a system that allowed knowledgeable people to beat slots, then Vegas would have gone dark a looong time ago. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slot-machines-wtf-seriously-wtf/616435/79 "2012-03-22T16:35:39Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > **BoBettie** , nothing you’ve said in that post makes any sense. “Good money after bad?” It’s all bad once it goes into the machine. “Recoup a loss?” If you bet a dollar, it doesn’t matter if you won or lost previously, especially not days before. Separating your wins from your “spendies” doesn’t make any difference at all, and saving money by quitting doesn’t change the fact that it would be _even better_ to quit _even earlier_. That’s one of the silliest things I’ve ever seen on this board. It’s not all “bad” money the second it goes in the machine, any more than the money for concert tickets or greens fees or zoo/fair/museum admission or bar drinks is “bad” money the second it goes into the cash register. It’s just what you’re willing to pay for a certain amount of time doing something you enjoy. I mean, you wouldn’t say to someone “Saving money by not buying popcorn doesn’t change the fact that it would be better to not go to the movies at all.” Yes, that person would save money by not buying that movie ticket, but it doesn’t really follow that they’re better off sitting around staring at the walls with that extra $10 in their hand. Same thing with **BoBettie** ’s slots and my trips to the track. We have each determined that we are willing to spend $x on an afternoon’s entertainment. If it so happens that we get a little something extra, that’s awesome. If we don’t get anything extra, we still had $x worth of fun, so it was worth it. This is not rocket surgery. ---
**Author:** ![Normal\_Phase](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Normal\_Phase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Normal_Phase)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2012, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slot-machines-wtf-seriously-wtf/616435/80 "2012-03-22T16:36:50Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Serious question, but when you play those penny or nickel slots in which players often play 20 or 50 lines (or whatever), do you understand why you win? Because I just see lines going all over the place and cannot figure out what combinations are losers, which are winners, or even just how close I came to winning a jackpot. The gameplay is utterly baffling. I think that’s the point. Well not so much that it’s baffling as that it’s complex. “Look I can win this way, or this way, or even this way or this way. Cool!” And then you get to watch for all these different possibilities on each press of the button, instead of the boring old single line. It doesn’t seem to matter that the complex machines as well as the boring ones are calibrated to pay back 95 cents on the dollar (or whatever it is) just the same. It feels like you have more chances to win. So they do a better job of sucking people in. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slot-machines-wtf-seriously-wtf/616435.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slot-machines-wtf-seriously-wtf/616435.md?page=5)