# Slowing gun violence without using gun control/elimination **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 14, 2019, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slowing-gun-violence-without-using-gun-control-elimination/833963 "2019-05-14T18:25:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slowing-gun-violence-without-using-gun-control-elimination/833963/21 "2019-05-14T19:10:19Z")
The history of human being behavior would suggest an emphatic, “NO!” If putting people on the Honor System worked, we wouldn’t need alarms, locks, and police. People need to be governed and controlled. Ideally, they should control themselves, and some actually do. Unfortunately, many don’t. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slowing-gun-violence-without-using-gun-control-elimination/833963/22 "2019-05-14T19:10:50Z")
> [@Lamoral](#): > > Jesus H. Christ, man, the OP said “without going anywhere near the gun control controversy.” Here I am trying to make a good faith effort to actually discuss ideas, and everyone else seems to just be threadshitting. Hey, I tried addressing what I percieve to be the source of increased gun violence, and was told I was being unrealistic. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slowing-gun-violence-without-using-gun-control-elimination/833963/23 "2019-05-14T19:11:44Z")
I like this question, and although I’m not sure I have any good answers that meet the OP’s criteria, I think it’s helpful to understand the nature of “gun violence” in America. There are several distinct components, with distinct causes and, very likely - particularly in the OP’s scenario where we’re not talking about banning guns - distinct solutions. 1. Suicides (not quite 2/3) 2. Homicides (~1/3) 3. Accidents (a tiny fraction) Since so many of the posts have focused on them, it’s probably worth noting that school shootings are a small fraction of the total homicides. The lions share is drug- or gang-related. Off the top of my head, #3 could best be solved through training and education, #2 through whatever helps fight crime, or perhaps ending the war on drugs. #1 seems to be the most intractable problem. [Suicide rates](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Age_adjusted_U.S._suicide_rate_1981_2016.png) have been going up for the last couple of decades. I’ve been assured in various gun control threads that gun ownership rates have been in decline for decades now, so that doesn’t seem to be the cause. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slowing-gun-violence-without-using-gun-control-elimination/833963/24 "2019-05-14T19:16:49Z")
> [@Lamoral](#): > > I’ll just paste what I posted in the other thread: > > Imagine that the rate of gun ownership, and the “gun culture” of America, however that may be defined, remains exactly the same as it is now over the next 10 years. But imagine that during those 10 years, more of these boys - and let’s face it, it’s almost always boys - instead of sitting at home in their rooms on their computers or other devices, when they’re not at school, are, even just two or three days a week, spending time involved in some kind of productive activity. Whether it’s a sports team, an engineering club where they can work on machines, an outdoorsmanship class of some kind where they do some activity relating to nature, or virtually any other kind of activity you can imagine. Here’s something that I think is crucial not only to the mental state that motivates these shootings but to depressive and maladaptive personality disorders in general: when you’re DOING something, that is time that’s NOT being spent on just sitting around drowning in your own thoughts. > > I’ve read enough backstory on enough of these school shooters to know that their lives are typically lacking in camaraderie and productivity. A focused effort to study kids with emotional problems, figure out how they can be targeted with opportunities to alleviate these problems by offering them some meaning in their lives, and allocate funds for some kind of nationwide mentorship program, could seriously reduce the number of potential school shooters. And, unlike gun control, there aren’t going to be millions of people shouting down this proposal. It’s something that anyone with any common sense should be able to agree on. I’m not seeing this as a likely solution. There are always other people around. If somebody is a disaffected loner, it’s not due to a lack of opportunities to meet other people. The problem is internal; some individuals are either unwilling or unable to be part of a group. Pushing them into a group is not going to address that internal problem. In fact, it may put more stress on the individual as he is forced to deal with a situation he can’t or doesn’t want to deal with. This stress might make their problems worse and increase the chances of them turning violent. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slowing-gun-violence-without-using-gun-control-elimination/833963/25 "2019-05-14T19:22:27Z")
Legalize drugs, starting with weed. You’ll be undercutting much of the criminal activity that leads to gun violence and paying more then lip service to that “land of the free” (currently an ironic joke) stuff, in addition to freeing up a massive amount of law enforcement resources. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slowing-gun-violence-without-using-gun-control-elimination/833963/26 "2019-05-14T19:26:24Z")
And on top of that, homicides seem to be concentrated in fairly easily identified demographics as well. It’s not old Asian ladies shooting and killing each other, for example, nor is it white collar suburbanites. Also, school shootings and random mass shootings are still a TINY fraction of the total number of gun deaths. For example, if you look at the Wikipedia list of mass shootings (which is misleading; most of those are things like gang drive-bys, or shootings where bystanders are accidentally wounded and killed, not ‘mass shootings’ as people think of them), a total of 387 people were killed. That’s out of something like 40,000 total gun deaths, so more or less 1%, even accounting for the fact that most of the shootings aren’t Parkland/Columbine/Santa Fe/Pulse Nightclub type events. In 2017 and 2016, it was more along the lines of 200. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slowing-gun-violence-without-using-gun-control-elimination/833963/27 "2019-05-14T19:29:19Z")
> [@bump](#): > > And on top of that, homicides seem to be concentrated in fairly easily identified demographics as well. It’s not old Asian ladies shooting and killing each other, for example, nor is it white collar suburbanites. > > Also, school shootings and random mass shootings are still a TINY fraction of the total number of gun deaths. For example, if you look at the Wikipedia list of mass shootings (which is misleading; most of those are things like gang drive-bys, or shootings where bystanders are accidentally wounded and killed, not ‘mass shootings’ as people think of them), a total of 387 people were killed. > > That’s out of something like 40,000 total gun deaths, so more or less 1%, even accounting for the fact that most of the shootings aren’t Parkland/Columbine/Santa Fe/Pulse Nightclub type events. In 2017 and 2016, it was more along the lines of 200. And your possible(non gun control) solutions are…? ---
**Author:** ![somepumpkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7feea3/32.png) [@somepumpkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/somepumpkin)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slowing-gun-violence-without-using-gun-control-elimination/833963/28 "2019-05-14T19:32:35Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I’m pretty sure MY idea is more realistic than this 🙂 Quite possibly. But, yours mentioned firearms, didn’t it? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slowing-gun-violence-without-using-gun-control-elimination/833963/29 "2019-05-14T19:35:55Z")
Despite the many ideas above that address the problem of sad rural and suburban shooters, most gun violence occurs where the population is very concentrated. (Unless you are talking about suicides) US cities are miserable managers of public property and dreadful defenders of private property. Privatization of urban property and the introduction of private security services would be a good solution. Legalization of all drugs would be another constructive policy. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slowing-gun-violence-without-using-gun-control-elimination/833963/30 "2019-05-14T19:37:39Z")
So, am I going to get yelled at for being an idiot and not reading the OP if I suggested that universal health coverage, including things like mental health coverage, alcohol and addition treatment, etc. And also, more social services to crack down on abuse of family members. I’m convinced that there’s a cycle of violence in America that starts with abuse in the home, whether sexual, physical, or psychological. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slowing-gun-violence-without-using-gun-control-elimination/833963/31 "2019-05-14T19:44:22Z")
Gun violence experienced an uptick during the state-led destruction of the familial social bonds. Pro-family measures such as abolishing welfare transfer payments and Social Security insurance could strengthen communities afflicted by gun violence. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slowing-gun-violence-without-using-gun-control-elimination/833963/32 "2019-05-14T19:45:21Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I’m of the opinion that the spike in school/mass shootings has occurred largely because it’s seen as a way to make oneself important and maybe famous, and I think that occurred mostly because of the social networking programs and the 24 hour news cycle… The Columbine shooters were persecuted by other students (wikipedia): The link between bullying and school violence has attracted increasing attention since the massacre. Both of the shooters were classified as gifted children who had allegedly been victims of bullying for years. Early stories following the shootings charged that school administrators and teachers at Columbine had long condoned bullying.[156] Critics said this could have contributed to triggering the perpetrators’ extreme violence.[157] Klebold said on the Basement Tapes, “You’ve been giving us shit for years.”[25] Accounts from various parents and school staffers describe bullying at the school as “rampant.”[158] Nathan Vanderau, a friend of Klebold, and Alisa Owen, Harris’s eighth-grade science partner, reported that Harris and Klebold were constantly picked on. Vanderau noted that a “cup of fecal matter” was thrown at them.[159] Reportedly, they were regularly called “faggots”.[160] If those other students had not treat them so, I doubt they would have committed the crime. I doubt that hormone poisoned high school students can be taught to be nice and polite, but school faculty members can be taught to stop student bullying. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slowing-gun-violence-without-using-gun-control-elimination/833963/33 "2019-05-14T20:35:07Z")
For an off-the-wall idea, instead of trying to crack down on student bullying, why not encourage student _fighting_, i.e. the teacher says “if someone is bullying you, you have the right to defend yourself with physical but not deadly force.” You may get more fistfights but fewer shootings. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slowing-gun-violence-without-using-gun-control-elimination/833963/34 "2019-05-14T20:41:38Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > For an off-the-wall idea, instead of trying to crack down on student bullying, why not encourage student _fighting_, i.e. the teacher says “if someone is bullying you, you have the right to defend yourself with physical but not deadly force.” You may get more fistfights but fewer shootings. You will get the shit kicked out of you on a constant basis. The only thing holding those bullies back is the possibility of them getting in trouble for fighting…and you want to give them a free pass? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slowing-gun-violence-without-using-gun-control-elimination/833963/35 "2019-05-14T21:06:21Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You will get the shit kicked out of you on a constant basis. The only thing holding those bullies back is the possibility of them getting in trouble for fighting…and you want to give them a free pass? Nothing I said grants this. The students are being encouraged to defend themselves, not initiate violence. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slowing-gun-violence-without-using-gun-control-elimination/833963/36 "2019-05-14T21:10:41Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Nothing I said grants this. The students are being encouraged to defend themselves, not initiate violence. That would be a free pass to all the bullies because, unless an adult supervisor is standing right there the bullies will claim they didn’t hit first. Did you not go to a school that had bullies? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slowing-gun-violence-without-using-gun-control-elimination/833963/37 "2019-05-14T21:15:05Z")
He’s from Montreal. In Montreal we settled disputes by flicking cigarette butts and hurling insults in French. When it got really heated, we’d have a hockey shoot-out. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slowing-gun-violence-without-using-gun-control-elimination/833963/38 "2019-05-14T21:20:00Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > He’s from Montreal. In Montreal we settled disputes by flicking cigarette butts and hurling insults in French. When it got really heated, we’d have a hockey shoot-out. Puck _that_. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slowing-gun-violence-without-using-gun-control-elimination/833963/39 "2019-05-14T21:43:17Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > He’s from Montreal. In Montreal we settled disputes by flicking cigarette butts and hurling insults in French. When it got really heated, we’d have a hockey shoot-out. Tabernac! ---
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2019, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slowing-gun-violence-without-using-gun-control-elimination/833963/40 "2019-05-14T21:51:21Z")
It seems to me that Hollywood made a big shift from showing smoking as ubiquitous and cool to either not showing it, or putting it in a different light. I think it could be possible for Hollywood and other media to portray guns in a way that would change gun culture. One minor step would just be more realistic portrayals. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slowing-gun-violence-without-using-gun-control-elimination/833963.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/slowing-gun-violence-without-using-gun-control-elimination/833963.md?page=3)