# Small government advocate wants police to harass distraught women **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 22, 2011, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/small-government-advocate-wants-police-to-harass-distraught-women/572176 "2011-02-22T01:36:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/small-government-advocate-wants-police-to-harass-distraught-women/572176/21 "2011-02-22T03:55:55Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > The way you idiots here use the word “conservative” (i.e., with no regard for whether you are talking about a fiscal or social conservative) is bad enough–this thread title takes that problem up a couple orders of magnitude. Yeah, because outside of the Straight Dope, nobody ever uses the term “conservative” without qualifying it with either “fiscal” or “social”, least of all conservatives themselves. But isn’t a fiscal conservative therefore a social liberal and vice-versa? How many people would insist they’re neither kind of liberal? ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/small-government-advocate-wants-police-to-harass-distraught-women/572176/22 "2011-02-22T03:58:36Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > You can think that’s a stupid policy if you want to (I do), but it’s not violative of standard small government principles. Bull fucking shit. Not all but a “shitload”, define that as you will, of small government types are the very first to be hypocrital dickweeds. I mean, your small government people are all up in arms about Obama care and the Socialization of America, but they are the first to want to be invasive about what a women chooses to do with her body. And they are manning the barricades on cutting funding to Planned Parenthood. The small government movement may sound great in theory, but it has been hijacked (or ever thus) by a buncha pinheads that are use the small government meme to remove enforcement on environmental regulations, food health, oversight of the free market knows best ninnys that allowed Wall Street to almost bring down the global economic system, ad nauseum. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/small-government-advocate-wants-police-to-harass-distraught-women/572176/23 "2011-02-22T04:22:29Z")
Wow…just…wow. That’s some hardcore crazy there. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/small-government-advocate-wants-police-to-harass-distraught-women/572176/24 "2011-02-22T04:33:32Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Lynn, you are such a fucking idiot. I’m a small government advocate, and I don’t want the government to intrude in anyone’s life. A little sugar for your porridge, sir? > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Yeah? So what? > > I claim to want small government (because I do). If I go shoot up a liquor store and then rape some cats, do you think it would make sense if someone started a thread saying “Small government advocate shoots up liquor store and rapes cats”? Probably make more sense to write the headline as: “Snowmobile salesman shoots up liquor store and rapes cats.” I really suggest you work on your impulse control, btw; raping cats is really kinda sick. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/small-government-advocate-wants-police-to-harass-distraught-women/572176/25 "2011-02-22T04:46:15Z")
Ok, I wasn’t sure I could find this but I did. A year go almost exactly, Enderw24 started a thread in GD titled, [Utah law to criminalize miscarriages](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12157174) Here’s [Enderw24’s OP from that thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12157174#post12157174) > [@](#): > > **Utah law to criminalize miscarriages** > > A bill passed through the Utah state legislature’s House and Senate, awaiting signing by the governor, allows punishment up to life in prison for an “intentional, knowing, or reckless act” that leads to a miscarriage or abortion without a doctor’s supervision. The bill passed the 59-12 and 24-4 in the House and Senate respectively which means that even if the governor vetoed this bill, the votes are there to override it. > > [Home - Jezebel](http://jezebel.com/#!5479032/the-next-anti+choice-target-miscarriage) > [http://www.clevelandleader.com/node/13141](http://www.clevelandleader.com/node/13141) > > It’s the “reckless act” that’s causing people the most concern. To prove it, all one needs to show is that a woman behaved in a manner that is thought to cause miscarriage. Intent to actually cause miscarriage plays no part in it. > Based upon the proposed law, a woman who rode without a seatbelt and got into a car accident suffering a miscarriage could be charged under this law. > A woman who drank during pregnancy, painted a house, took an Aspirin without her doctor’s permission, accidently fell down some stairs, or stayed with an abusive boyfriend, can all be charged under this new law. > It’s possible the prosecutor need not link up the risky behavior as a direct cause of the miscarriage. > > Thoughts? Here is an excellent article discussing the implications of Utah’s bill - specifically that the bill is aimed at the pregnant woman, not at an attacker. A woman who drinks too much could be prosecuted under Utah’s law if she has a miscarriage, even if she wasn’t trying to induce one, because she engaged in risky behavior. > **[Utah Bill Criminalizes Miscarriage](https://rewirenewsgroup.com/2010/02/20/utah-bill-criminalizes-miscarriage/)** > > A bill passed this week by the Utah State Legislature and awaiting the governor's signature, will criminalize miscarriages and abortions under certain circumstances and send women to jail. Shortly after national attention was turned on the bill, its sponsor, Carl Wimmer, returned it to the State legeslation to remove the word “reckless act”. The Governor of Utah was reportedly concerned about unintended consequences from the original version. The new version sailed through and was signed by Gov. Gary Herbert early last March. [http://www.alternet.org/rights/145956/utah\_governor\_signs\_controversial\_law\_charging\_women\_and\_girls\_with\_murder\_for\_miscarriages](http://www.alternet.org/rights/145956/utah_governor_signs_controversial_law_charging_women_and_girls_with_murder_for_miscarriages) I have not been able to find any stories from the last year of a woman actually being investigated under this law. It’s possible that investigations are ongoing. It’s also possible that they’re nonexistent. It’s very late and my googlefu is tired. ```auto I mention all this because Ender's thread was chock full of "small government advocates" saying things like, "well, it's a bad law, but it's the will of the people, so what can you do?" and "No one would *ever* dream of investigating every miscarriage!!" and "It's completely unreasonable to think that anti-abortion opponents would try to expand on this law!!!" So no, I guess I'm not really surprised about this Georgia "small government nut" or that there are other "small government nuts" in this thread trying to excuse him. ``` ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/small-government-advocate-wants-police-to-harass-distraught-women/572176/26 "2011-02-22T04:59:57Z")
Yeah, I just saw a copy of this article (in the AJC, the Atlanta rag) today while I was waiting to get an oil change for my car. While it’s not remotely as bad as wanting the state to be in the business of further traumatizing women who have just had miscarriages, it still has that same :smack:-worthy quality to it. So, on the one hand: > [@Christian Coalition of Georgia leader Jerry Luquire](#): > > I hate government control of people, their business and thoughts — most of all their thoughts. and > [@Jerry Luquire](#): > > I probably had Republican thoughts since Reagan. The party believes people can do things and don’t need to be supported by the government. But on the other hand, the article is about how happy Mr. Luquire is to have won a political victory on behalf of his organization…blocking a bill to allow Georgia counties and cities to have popular referendums on whether to allow Sunday alcohol sales. And the article also mentions he’s working on another issue: Blocking the legalization of slot machines. Oh, but > [@](#): > > As for whether his stance against government control conflicts with his fight against a Sunday alcohol sales referendum, he contends that this matter is different: “We all have rules that make decisions for people.” Well, yes, Jerry, but your rules are stupid. Note: It’s generally legal in Georgia to buy alcoholic beverages on Sunday _in a restaurant_–a place which is, by definition, not one’s home, and which, given the state of public transportation in this state, will almost certainly be reached by driving there in your car. And then driving back home again afterwards. What’s not legal is someone buying beer, wine, or liquor on Sunday at a store and bringing the stuff back home to get buzzed, drunk, or sloshed, or just have a glass of wine with their meal, in their own homes, where they presumably will not have to get behind the wheel of a motor vehicle and drive on the public roadways to get from the dining room to the bedroom. (And it’s obviously not even remotely effective as some kind of actual Prohibition, since you can buy booze at the store on the other six days a week, so it’s just a pointless vestigial pandering to the teetotaling wing of the Christian supremacists, keeping everyone else from buying Demon Rum on _their_ Holy Day.) I am sick and tired of the beady-eyed loon wing of conservatives wrapping themselves in the rhetoric of libertarianism. I’m not a libertarian, but at least I agree with them some of the time, and Jerry Luquire and his ilk are not libertarians. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/small-government-advocate-wants-police-to-harass-distraught-women/572176/27 "2011-02-22T05:46:00Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > The idea of wanting a small government is about limiting the activities of government to only certain things. That is a stupid definition, and you are stupid for proposing it. Everyone, liberal or conservative, dictator or anarchist, wants to “limit the activities of the government to only certain things”, since “certain things” means _nada_. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/small-government-advocate-wants-police-to-harass-distraught-women/572176/28 "2011-02-22T06:05:29Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > Yeah, I just saw a copy of this article [Fixed link](http://romenews-tribune.com/view/full_story/11518339/article-Sunday-alcohol-roadblock-victory-for-Christian-Coalition-leader?instance=home_news) ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/small-government-advocate-wants-police-to-harass-distraught-women/572176/29 "2011-02-22T06:07:02Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > OK, hold the phone, I think I see what your major malfunction may be. > > You see a small government advocate advocating something that would increase government activity (because his policy would cause more work for the police). But that policy isn’t against the principles of small government. > > The idea of wanting a small government is about limiting the activities of government to only certain things. Enforcing laws is pretty much the most basic thing that any small government advocate definitely wants the government to do (that and fight wars). > > So, this guy’s policy doesn’t violate principles of small government (i.e., by advocating government activity outside its limited roles), he’s just saying that the death of a fetus (and that may not be the right word–embryo, maybe?) should be treated like the death of a full-fledged human (i.e., with an investigation into its cause). > > You can think that’s a stupid policy if you want to (I do), but it’s not violative of standard small government principles. So if I were to campaign for a law that would take away everyone’s guns, but would declare all reproductive issues off-limits to legislation, can I claim to be for small government, too? ---
**Author:** ![Cyningablod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Cyningablod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyningablod)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/small-government-advocate-wants-police-to-harass-distraught-women/572176/30 "2011-02-22T06:17:21Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > The idea of wanting a small government is about limiting the activities of government to only certain things. Enforcing laws is pretty much the most basic thing that any small government advocate definitely wants the government to do (that and fight wars). Oh, y’all love your wars, alright. That much is for goddamn sure. (Funny that that’s one of the few gov’t roles you overtly specify as desirable… :dubious:) You all tend not to give much of a shit about the poor or the sick (or even the planet itself), but you gotta have them wars! Whether they’re fuck well justified or not. And with respect to smallgovernmentism being “about limiting the activities of government to only certain things,” that’s right. And in your view, those “certain things” just happen–coincidentally enough–to be just those areas that are y’all’s pet policy objectives, and _not_ objectively necessary government functions. In other words, it’s hypocrisy. Exactly as **tnetennba** and **China Guy** pointed out (but which you seemed not to grasp). You want “small government,” _except_ for the government shit that _ **you** _ really want. So let’s dispense with the “small government” bullshit. If you want to be more honest, you should start yammering about and advocating “ **small _liberal influence on_ government** ”. Then you can at least have your cake and eat it, too, without the icing of hypocrisy. Whether _you personally_ don’t think this Georgia fucknut’s bill proposal is government intrusion/overstepping, or not, is largely irrelevant. A great many Americans do (or would) think so, and it’s certainly not a necessary function of any government, whether federal, state, or local. How you can still call that within the bounds of smallgovernmentism while keeping a straight face, is beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/small-government-advocate-wants-police-to-harass-distraught-women/572176/31 "2011-02-22T06:21:14Z")
I want to limit conservatives in government. I must be a small government advocate! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/small-government-advocate-wants-police-to-harass-distraught-women/572176/32 "2011-02-22T06:32:20Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > The idea of wanting a small government is about limiting the activities of government to only certain things. A meaningless position; that is also the position of so called “big government” advocates, short of totalitarians. In reality it just means that so-called “small government” advocates want the government to leave the rich and powerful alone while invading the lives of the “little people”. And to fight wars and oppress people with the wrong skin color, sexuality, religion or genitals. And make sure those little people don’t get uppity towards their betters. But investigating the misdeeds of the wealthy and powerful or restraining them from doing whatever they please to whomever they please? That’s right out! ---
**Author:** ![Cyningablod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc29f/32.png) [@Cyningablod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyningablod)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/small-government-advocate-wants-police-to-harass-distraught-women/572176/33 "2011-02-22T06:53:41Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > I want to limit conservatives in government. I must be a small government advocate! 😃 SDMB needs a “Like” button for posts. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/small-government-advocate-wants-police-to-harass-distraught-women/572176/34 "2011-02-22T06:59:20Z")
As someone pointed out some time ago: > [@Kimstu](#): > > If you believe that an embryo or fetus at any stage of development has the same legal personhood and basic rights as a post-birth infant… …and since the U.S. Constitution specifies that American citizenship is acquired at birth or naturalization, all fetuses are undocumented aliens! ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/small-government-advocate-wants-police-to-harass-distraught-women/572176/35 "2011-02-22T07:34:50Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > …and since the U.S. Constitution specifies that American citizenship is acquired at birth or naturalization, all fetuses are undocumented aliens! They’re probably all planning to sneak out of their mothers uteruses in the dead of night to have anchor babies to help them secure citizenship. Fetuses are sneaky that way. ---
**Author:** ![Cyberhwk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7993a0/32.png) [@Cyberhwk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyberhwk)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/small-government-advocate-wants-police-to-harass-distraught-women/572176/36 "2011-02-22T08:18:13Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > But on the other hand, the article is about how happy Mr. Luquire is to have won a political victory on behalf of his organization…blocking a bill to allow Georgia counties and cities to have popular referendums on whether to allow Sunday alcohol sales. Same damn thing happened here in Washington State last November. Conservatives went bonkers about taxes, too much government regulation, leave business to the private sector… Our voter initiative to allow private businesses to sell alcohol got trounced. ---
**Author:** ![margin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/65b543/32.png) [@margin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/margin)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/small-government-advocate-wants-police-to-harass-distraught-women/572176/37 "2011-02-22T09:15:43Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Lynn, you are such a fucking idiot. I’m a small government advocate, and I don’t want the government to intrude in anyone’s life. Well, aren’t you the special snowflake? Point is, dipshit, that this is a long-standing issue with these assholes and even if you aren’t like them, they are, so shut up and let her complain. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/small-government-advocate-wants-police-to-harass-distraught-women/572176/38 "2011-02-22T11:33:46Z")
> [@tnetennba](#): > > He says the U.S. has secretly gone communist OK, this one I’m genuinely curious about. How do you secretly go communist ? Are all private business owners secretly in league with The Party, are there secret five year plans, what ? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/small-government-advocate-wants-police-to-harass-distraught-women/572176/39 "2011-02-22T12:42:04Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > OK, this one I’m genuinely curious about. How do you secretly go communist ? Are all private business owners secretly in league with The Party, are there secret five year plans, what ? I’ve heard that sort of claim before, from the sort of people who think markings on highway signs are direction markers for the upcoming UN led invasion forces, or that the US Navy is dumping M-16s overboard and replacing them with Kalashnikovs (because Kalashnikovs are intrinsically more Communist somehow, I suppose). Although not so much recently since the USSR collapsed so long ago. Some far right types think or thought that most or all of the US government secretly works for the Communists, along with evil liberal industries like Hollywood as far as I understand. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2011, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/small-government-advocate-wants-police-to-harass-distraught-women/572176/40 "2011-02-22T13:03:53Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > ```or > > ``` Who? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/small-government-advocate-wants-police-to-harass-distraught-women/572176.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/small-government-advocate-wants-police-to-harass-distraught-women/572176.md?page=3)