Small government advocate wants police to harass distraught women

[YogSothoth]

I’m (now) a small government advocate and I vehemently object to the government trying to redefine words for us such as abortion to murder. I prefer the government stay out of it and let the people decide. If we want to call murder an ‘adult abortion’, then that’s ok too

[Bricker]

@Zeriel

To be fair, the change of language from “induced termination of pregnancy” to “prenatal murder” in section 2.13 is at best chilling in intent, regardless of the chances it’ll pass constitutional muster. It amounts to a change in the spirit of the law without much of a meaningful change in the letter.

Er… yeah, sorta. The “chilling” part would be the attempt to criminalize abortion itself. If that weren’t part of the package, perhaps this language alone would itself be chilling, but I think that it pales next to the very real changes being proposed.

But my whole point is: of all that’s untenable about this bill, the complaint this thread highlights is one that doesn’t really exist. Here’s a bill that purports to explicitly outlaw abortion and explicitly declares the Supreme Court of the United States had no power to interpret the federal constitution in the way it did. THOSE are the rant-able aspects of the bill.

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

@Bricker

Not so far as I can see.

Georgia’s § 45-16-24 doesn’t use the term “murder.” So (again, so far as I can see) there’s nothing new triggered by changing the term from fetal death to fetal murder.

In other words, current law already requires that certain fetal deaths be reported and investigated. Calling them something different, like “murder,” while obviously inflammatory, makes absolutely no difference in the law.

I’ve seen as much online, but doesn’t “murder” have some specific meaning under Georgia law?

Current law states that fetal deaths have to be reported, and in certain circumstances, their cause has to be investigated. What I’m asking is if they are presently charged and prosecuted in the same way that a murder is.

[MrDibble]

That Rep is just begging for Sheri Tepper’s Fresco solution, if anyone knows what I mean.

[kaylasdad99]

@Bricker

But my whole point is: of all that’s untenable about this bill, the complaint this thread highlights is one that doesn’t really exist. Here’s a bill that purports to explicitly outlaw abortion and explicitly declares the Supreme Court of the United States had no power to interpret the federal constitution in the way it did. THOSE are the rant-able aspects of the bill.

Good point. Maybe you could open a thread to rant about them.

[kaylasdad99]

@MrDibble

That Rep is just begging for Sheri Tepper’s Fresco solution, if anyone knows what I mean.

Has to do with an award-nominated sci-fi story, as near as I can tell. Please feel free to elaborate.

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

Bricker,

Just as a for instance, when I look at Georgia law regarding the death penalty, it appears to be the case that someone may be sentenced to death for committing murder. I can find no evidence to suggest that presently, someone could be sentenced to death for causing fetal death.

Also, it seems that the law defines causing any fetal death as also being conspiracy to commit murder per se. Doesn’t that have a specific and different meaning than current law regarding fetal death?

[Bricker]

@Hentor_the_Barbarian

I’ve seen as much online, but doesn’t “murder” have some specific meaning under Georgia law?

Current law states that fetal deaths have to be reported, and in certain circumstances, their cause has to be investigated. What I’m asking is if they are presently charged and prosecuted in the same way that a murder is.

No.

And if this bill were law, they still wouldn’t be.

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

@Bricker

No.

And if this bill were law, they still wouldn’t be.

What part of Georgia law provides that some murders shall be excluded from the process of criminal charge and prosecution?

[Bricker]

@Hentor_the_Barbarian

Bricker,

Just as a for instance, when I look at Georgia law regarding the death penalty, it appears to be the case that someone may be sentenced to death for committing murder. I can find no evidence to suggest that presently, someone could be sentenced to death for causing fetal death.

Also, it seems that the law defines causing any fetal death as also being conspiracy to commit murder per se. Doesn’t that have a specific and different meaning than current law regarding fetal death?

Oh, sure. Lots of stuff like that could happen if this bill were law. What I’m talking about here is the claim that miscarriages would have to be investigated. There is a law right now concerning the reporting of certain fetal deaths, and those reporting requirements wouldn’t change if this current bill became law. But there are OTHER things this current bill would do, like allow the state to punish people who committed “fetal murder” as a crime.

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

@Bricker

No.

And if this bill were law, they still wouldn’t be.

According to this proposed law “(d) Any person committing prenatal murder in this state shall be guilty of a felony and, upon conviction, shall be punished as provided in subsection (d) of Code Section 16-5-1.”
Georgia Code - Crimes and Offenses - Title 16, Section 16-5-1
Legal Research Home > Georgia Laws > Crimes and Offenses > Georgia Code - Crimes and Offenses - Title 16, Section 16-5-1
(a) A person commits the offense of murder when he unlawfully and with malice aforethought, either express or implied, causes the death of another human being.
(b) Express malice is that deliberate intention unlawfully to take the life of another human being which is manifested by external circumstances capable of proof. Malice shall be implied where no considerable provocation appears and where all the circumstances of the killing show an abandoned and malignant heart.
(c) A person also commits the offense of murder when, in the commission of a felony, he causes the death of another human being irrespective of malice.
(d) A person convicted of the offense of murder shall be punished by death or by imprisonment for life.
Last modified: April 21, 2006

Seems pretty clear that they would be.

[Bricker]

@hentor the barbarian

what part of georgia law provides that some murders shall be excluded from the process of criminal charge and prosecution?

ocga § 45-16-24.

[Bricker]

@Hentor_the_Barbarian

According to this proposed law “(d) Any person committing prenatal murder in this state shall be guilty of a felony and, upon conviction, shall be punished as provided in subsection (d) of Code Section 16-5-1.”

Yes. But what is “prenatal murder,” according to this proposed bill?

@HB1

(2) ‘Prenatal murder’ means the intentional removal of a fetus from a woman with an intention other than to produce a live birth or to remove a dead fetus; provided, however, that if a physician makes a medically justified effort to save the lives of both the mother and the fetus and the fetus does not survive, such action shall not be prenatal murder. Such term does not include a naturally occurring expulsion of a fetus known medically as a ‘spontaneous abortion’ and popularly as a ‘miscarriage’ so long as there is no human involvement whatsoever in the causation of such event.

(emphasis added)

So, as I said above, there’s no question that this bill purports to criminalize intentional acts causing the death of a fetus.

What it does not do is require investigation in cases of miscarriage.

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

@Bricker

Oh, sure. Lots of stuff like that could happen if this bill were law. What I’m talking about here is the claim that miscarriages would have to be investigated. There is a law right now concerning the reporting of certain fetal deaths, and those reporting requirements wouldn’t change if this current bill became law.

Well, tell me how it would be determined whether a miscarriage occurred as a result of intentional harm to the fetus without an investigation?

What miscarriages would be excluded under the following language “: (3) When a spontaneous fetal death required to be reported by this Code section occurs without medical attendance at or immediately after the delivery or when inquiry is
required by Article 2 of Chapter 16 of Title 45, the ‘Georgia Death Investigation Act,’ the proper investigating official shall investigate the cause of fetal death and shall prepare and file the report within 30 days; and”

But there are OTHER things this current bill would do, like allow the state to punish people who committed “fetal murder” as a crime.

Again, how do you get there without an investigation?

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

@Bricker

ocga § 45-16-24.

Link please, or quote of the relevant language?

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

@Bricker

ocga § 45-16-24.

Here’s what I found for 45-16-24:

45-16-24. (a) When any person dies in any county in this state: (1) As a result of violence; (2) By suicide or casualty; (3) Suddenly when in apparent good health; (4) When unattended by a physician; (5) In any suspicious or unusual manner, with particular attention to those persons 16 years of age and under; (6) After birth but before seven years of age if the death is unexpected or unexplained; (7) As a result of an execution carried out pursuant to the imposition of the death penalty under Article 2 of Chapter 10 of Title 17; (8) When an inmate of a state hospital or a state, county, or city penal institution; or (9) After having been admitted to a hospital in an unconscious state and without regaining consciousness within 24 hours of admission, it shall be the duty of any law enforcement officer or other person having knowledge of such death to notify immediately the coroner or county medical examiner of the county wherein the body is found or death occurs. For the purposes of this Code section, no person shall be deemed to have died unattended when the death occurred while the person was a patient of a hospice licensed under Article 9 of Chapter 7 of Title 31. (b) A coroner or county medical examiner who is notified of a death pursuant to subsection (a) of this Code section shall order a medical examiner´s inquiry of that death. (c) Whenever an affidavit is made and filed with a court having criminal jurisdiction attesting that a person came to his death by foul play, that court may interrogate and examine witnesses, if any exist, as to the necessity of a medical examiner´s inquiry. Should the court decide that a medical examiner´s inquiry is essential to the ends of justice, such inquiry shall be ordered by that court. (d) A medical examiner´s inquiry required under this Code section shall be reduced to writing and filed as provided in Code Section 45-16-32. At the time of such filing, a copy of the medical examiner´s inquiry into a death reported to a coroner or county medical examiner pursuant to paragraph (6) of subsection (a) of this Code section shall also be transmitted to the department of family and children services of the county in which the child resided at the time of death.

Where in there does it say that Georgia will not pursue some murder charges and punishments?

[Bricker]

@Hentor_the_Barbarian

Well, tell me how it would be determined whether a miscarriage occurred as a result of intentional harm to the fetus without an investigation?

What miscarriages would be excluded under the following language “: (3) When a spontaneous fetal death required to be reported by this Code section occurs without medical attendance at or immediately after the delivery or when inquiry is
required by Article 2 of Chapter 16 of Title 45, the ‘Georgia Death Investigation Act,’ the proper investigating official shall investigate the cause of fetal death and shall prepare and file the report within 30 days; and”

Again, how do you get there without an investigation?

Right you are – that language does seem to call for at least a report (not an investigation, but I’ll agree an intrusive requirement nonetheless) after a miscarriage.

But that’s ALREADY GEORGIA LAW.

@Hentor_the_Barbarian

Link please, or quote of the relevant language?

I can’t find a public link, but there must be one.

That law lays out the circumstances in which Georgia officials are required to investigate a death:

(a) When any person dies in any county in this state:

(1) As a result of violence;

(2) By suicide or casualty;

(3) Suddenly when in apparent good health;

(4) When unattended by a physician;

(5) In any suspicious or unusual manner, with particular attention to those persons 16 years of age and under;

(6) After birth but before seven years of age if the death is unexpected or unexplained;

(7) As a result of an execution carried out pursuant to the imposition of the death penalty under Article 2 of Chapter 10 of Title 17;

(8) When an inmate of a state hospital or a state, county, or city penal institution; or

(9) After having been admitted to a hospital in an unconscious state and without regaining consciousness within 24 hours of admission,

So there’s nothing in the proposed bill that would heighten the existing reporting requirement.

If you believe that the present law, on the books for five years, is itself an intrusive requirement, I don’t necessarilt disagree with you.

But I would note that it will be hard to claim that the current reporting law will require intrusive reprting of miscarriages, since it doesn’t appear to be doing that.

[Bricker]

@Hentor_the_Barbarian

Here’s what I found for 45-16-24:

Where in there does it say that Georgia will not pursue some murder charges and punishments?

That law lays out what deaths must be investigated.

It excludes miscarriages.

“After birth but before seven years of age if the death is unexpected or unexplained”

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

@Bricker

Right you are – that language does seem to call for at least a report (not an investigation, but I’ll agree an intrusive requirement nonetheless) after a miscarriage.

But that’s ALREADY GEORGIA LAW.

NO FUCKING SHIT.

But under the proposed law, it would be the investigation of a murder. Surely, this might be deemed an intrusive requirement, no doubt.

What you continue to fail to demonstrate is that the legal process associated with causing a fetal death under present Georgia law is the same as the legal process associated with a murder.

If it is, then you are correct about this law, in that it represents no meaningful change.

If it is not, then you are wrong, and I point to this as an example of you selecting a position based on a pre-existing political orientation, making incorrect statements as a result, and having to be pursued through a knot hole in order to acknowledge your error, if you ever do.

It seems to me that you are not going to.

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

@Bricker

That law lays out what deaths must be investigated.

It excludes miscarriages.

“After birth but before seven years of age if the death is unexpected or unexplained”

Are you now asserting that “investigation” is the same as “charge and punishment”?