# "Small government" conservative goes after NBC for altering the Pledge of Allegiance. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 22, 2011, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/small-government-conservative-goes-after-nbc-for-altering-the-pledge-of-allegiance/586483 "2011-06-22T20:36:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/small-government-conservative-goes-after-nbc-for-altering-the-pledge-of-allegiance/586483/21 "2011-06-23T13:05:53Z")
> [@straight\_man](#): > > I’m with the Republicans on that one. If a passage has been amended out of existence, there’s no reason you should have to read it. Also, it was a little weird to see the act framed as anti-black or revisionist — it makes more sense as a way of emphasizing the importance and the authority of the amendments. > (Sorry for the hijack.) Did they skip the 14th Amendment, Clause 2 which noted males vote (and by extension women don’t) because it was superseded by the 19th Amendment? (not that I see but maybe I missed it) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/small-government-conservative-goes-after-nbc-for-altering-the-pledge-of-allegiance/586483/22 "2011-06-23T13:39:37Z")
> [@The\_Tooth](#): > > There was no point to standing there reading it at all, actually. Of course there was. There was no legally effective change, but there was a point. The point was to symbolically remind the public that Congress the legislative arm of a federal government with limited, ennumerated powers, and this is the document that lists those powers. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/small-government-conservative-goes-after-nbc-for-altering-the-pledge-of-allegiance/586483/23 "2011-06-23T13:41:39Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Did they skip the 14th Amendment, Clause 2 which noted males vote (and by extension women don’t) because it was superseded by the 19th Amendment? (not that I see but maybe I missed it) Not necessary, because that clause was stil operative. Men still vote. The fact that women vote is not a feature of the Fourteenth Amendment. The Nineteenth Amendment did not modify the Fourteenth Amendment. But the Thirteenth Amendment modified any prior mention of slavery. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/small-government-conservative-goes-after-nbc-for-altering-the-pledge-of-allegiance/586483/24 "2011-06-23T13:59:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Not necessary, because that clause was stil operative. Men still vote. > > The fact that women vote is not a feature of the Fourteenth Amendment. The Nineteenth Amendment did not modify the Fourteenth Amendment. > > But the Thirteenth Amendment modified any prior mention of slavery. Interesting. Then why did you say: > [@Scalia says the 14th amendment doesn't apply to women](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scalia-says-the-14th-amendment-doesnt-apply-to-women/566476/5): > > If the 14th does include women, then why was the 19th necessary? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/small-government-conservative-goes-after-nbc-for-altering-the-pledge-of-allegiance/586483/25 "2011-06-23T14:03:09Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > More Americans need to learn to stretch their minds around things. That sounds kind of gory. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/small-government-conservative-goes-after-nbc-for-altering-the-pledge-of-allegiance/586483/26 "2011-06-23T14:03:13Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > 25+ years ago, when I joined the USAF, we were given the option to omit the words “under God” from all pledges and oaths. Not quite. You were given the option to omit the words “so help me God” from the Oath of Enlistment. As for the Pledge of Allegiance, case law says you aren’t required to say it at all (_WV State Board of Education v. Barnette.)_ ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/small-government-conservative-goes-after-nbc-for-altering-the-pledge-of-allegiance/586483/27 "2011-06-23T14:07:08Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > It’s a socialist pledge anyway. Coats must be a socialist if he believes in it. Which means Coats was probably born in Kenya. Anyone seen his birth certificate? What is he hiding anyway? Has he ever specifically denied being a socialist – especially now that he’s tipped his hand by getting up in arms over a socialist pledge written by a socialist, obviously as part of his socialist agenda to socialize America into a socialist nation? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/small-government-conservative-goes-after-nbc-for-altering-the-pledge-of-allegiance/586483/28 "2011-06-23T14:15:22Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > I am displeased to see my tax dollars wasted in this way. Well, ok, I am not in Indiana, and this ain’t my Senator, but still…there are more productive ways he could spend his time. A U.S. senator from Indiana is the holder of a federal constitutional office, not the holder of an Indiana state office. All of his powers, privileges, and activities are federal powers, privileges, and activities, not state ones. Coats is a U.S. senator. Whatever expenditure of tax dollars that can be credited to him are all federal tax dollars. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/small-government-conservative-goes-after-nbc-for-altering-the-pledge-of-allegiance/586483/29 "2011-06-23T14:17:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Not necessary, because that clause was stil operative. Men still vote. The three-fifths clause is also still operative. The fact that one specific class of people included in that clause (slaves) no longer exists does not remove or invalidate the clause itself. And yet it was revisionist-edited out. (And I’m still trying to figure out what rationale they could have possibly had for [editing out](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/06/AR2011010603759.html?sid=ST2011010603624) the provision for appointing senators to fill vacancies. Did that go away when I wasn’t looking?) ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/small-government-conservative-goes-after-nbc-for-altering-the-pledge-of-allegiance/586483/30 "2011-06-23T14:21:23Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Of course there was. > > There was no legally effective change, but there was a point. The point was to symbolically remind the public that Congress the legislative arm of a federal government with limited, ennumerated powers, and this is the document that lists those powers. I believe that what **The Tooth** meant is that this is a stupid point that was a major waste of time and energy. I’m sure the guy waving a Rapture sign on the street corner has a point too, but that doesn’t mean we all need to listen to him. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/small-government-conservative-goes-after-nbc-for-altering-the-pledge-of-allegiance/586483/31 "2011-06-23T14:23:38Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > The three-fifths clause is also still operative. The fact that one specific class of people included in that clause (slaves) no longer exists does not remove or invalidate the clause itself. > > And yet it was revisionist-edited out. It is not still operative - it was specifically changed by Section 2 of the 14th Amendment: > [@](#): > > Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/small-government-conservative-goes-after-nbc-for-altering-the-pledge-of-allegiance/586483/32 "2011-06-23T14:25:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The difference between the two cases: NBC altered the existing Pledge. The Constitution was not altered; what was read was the current operative version of the document. Is there a law against altering the Pledge of Allegiance? Do you believe the government has the authority to force NBC to explain or justify a free speech choice? They didn’t “alter” the pledge anyway. They just left part of it out. Is that a crime? Does that require a literal act of Congress? Is this something the government has any business, or Constitutional right to get involved with? I thought you righties hated big government telling private businesses what to do. Now you want the government monitoring the media for insufficient religiosity? Are we in Iran now? What the fuck. Fuck your pledge. I pledge allegiance to my cock of the United States of blow me. Are you going to get the government after me now? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/small-government-conservative-goes-after-nbc-for-altering-the-pledge-of-allegiance/586483/33 "2011-06-23T14:34:13Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Do you believe the government has the authority to force NBC to explain or justify a free speech choice? Where did the government do that? I think other people have the right to ask NBC why they did what they did - presumably many people did so immediately and this led to their quick apology that day. Maybe some of them asked as well for a written explanation and for assurances that this won’t happen again - which is as far as the senator went. No threats of investigations, no grumbling about licenses or equal time. Pretty mild stuff. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/small-government-conservative-goes-after-nbc-for-altering-the-pledge-of-allegiance/586483/34 "2011-06-23T14:35:11Z")
Why should they have to make an apology? They did nothing wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/small-government-conservative-goes-after-nbc-for-altering-the-pledge-of-allegiance/586483/35 "2011-06-23T14:35:46Z")
Then why did they apologize? ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/small-government-conservative-goes-after-nbc-for-altering-the-pledge-of-allegiance/586483/36 "2011-06-23T14:38:49Z")
Because they caved in to pressure from idiots who think they did something wrong, clearly. Personally I find it disappointing. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/small-government-conservative-goes-after-nbc-for-altering-the-pledge-of-allegiance/586483/37 "2011-06-23T14:44:29Z")
I disagree. If they had made a decision to show none of the pledge ceremony, nobody probably would have noticed or cared. Since they decided to show it, they should have committed to showing the whole thing - especially since the parts they excised were the parts that people would have noticed and gotten angry about. Whoever was weighing risk-aversion in their head and decided that this needed to be done was a fool - far fewer people would be offended by showing the whole pledge than would be offended by this editing job. NBC made a mistake and was right to apologize. ---
**Author:** ![joebuck20](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/74df32/32.png) [@joebuck20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joebuck20)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/small-government-conservative-goes-after-nbc-for-altering-the-pledge-of-allegiance/586483/38 "2011-06-23T14:54:05Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Where did the government do that? > > I think other people have the right to ask NBC why they did what they did - presumably many people did so immediately and this led to their quick apology that day. > > Maybe some of them asked as well for a written explanation and for assurances that this won’t happen again - which is as far as the senator went. No threats of investigations, no grumbling about licenses or equal time. Pretty mild stuff. True. But what business does a U.S. senator have asking a private organization to explain “its decision-making process in this matter…why these specific words were omitted, and what actions NBC intends to take to prevent such inappropriate edits from occurring in the future.” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/small-government-conservative-goes-after-nbc-for-altering-the-pledge-of-allegiance/586483/39 "2011-06-23T14:59:37Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Where did the government do that? Did you read the OP? A US Senator has somehow gotten it into his little pea brain that a media organization owes the government an explanation for a free speech choice. > [@](#): > > I think other people have the right to ask NBC why they did what they did - presumably many people did so immediately and this led to their quick apology that day. TheGOVERNMENT is not entitled to demand jack shit. > [@](#): > > Maybe some of them asked as well for a written explanation and for assurances that this won’t happen again - which is as far as the senator went. No threats of investigations, no grumbling about licenses or equal time. Pretty mild stuff. The Senator is entitled to nothing. Neither is anyone else, for that matter. It’s called free speech. Suck it. Nobody has to explain to you why they decided not to chant to your sky fairy, and they sure as hell don’t have to explain it to the government. It’s bizarre that you righties think you’ve somehow been victimized. How exactly do you believe you were harmed? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/small-government-conservative-goes-after-nbc-for-altering-the-pledge-of-allegiance/586483/40 "2011-06-23T15:00:43Z")
> [@Mr.Moto](#): > > Then why did they apologize? Because they’re afraid of morons writing letters. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/small-government-conservative-goes-after-nbc-for-altering-the-pledge-of-allegiance/586483.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/small-government-conservative-goes-after-nbc-for-altering-the-pledge-of-allegiance/586483.md?page=3)