# Smallest but Most Influential Battle in History **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 6, 2021, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smallest-but-most-influential-battle-in-history/955586 "2021-12-06T19:40:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2021, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smallest-but-most-influential-battle-in-history/955586/41 "2021-12-07T21:16:12Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > Hiroshima and Osirak were definitely attacks. The “defenders” never really responded. The Iraqi defenders at Osirak definitely fired back - they just didn’t hit anything. But I get your point. ---
**Author:** ![Mallard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Mallard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mallard)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2021, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smallest-but-most-influential-battle-in-history/955586/42 "2021-12-07T21:41:15Z")
My choice as well, the Battle of Dieppe. It taught just how important it was to the Allied high command not to underestimate the power German forces actually had and likely the biggest reason for the success of D Day’s operation Overlord. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2021, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smallest-but-most-influential-battle-in-history/955586/43 "2021-12-07T21:59:46Z")
Another type of influential battle is one where someone important happened to die. A good example is the siege of Chalus-Chabrol in Normandy, in 1199. Richard I of England, hearing of a Roman treasure someone had dug up, took a force to demand that the local lord hand it over to him. I can’t find any documentation on how many troops he took with him, but since the chateau was tiny and barely manned, I doubt it was more than a few hundred, maybe a thousand. A few days into the siege, Richard was shot by a lucky (or actually, considering his fate, and extremely _un_lucky) crossbowman; the wound festered, and he died. If Richard had lived, his brother John wouldn’t have ascended to the throne of England as soon as he did, which means no loss of French lands, no Barons’ Wars, and no Magna Carta. That’s quite a big impact from one crossbow bolt. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2021, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smallest-but-most-influential-battle-in-history/955586/44 "2021-12-08T17:35:10Z")
Thinking outside the box: [The Battle of Chapultepec](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chapultepec). It was entirely possible that, had things gone differently, casualties could have included [Daniel H. Hill](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_H._Hill), Ulysses Grant, [George Pickett](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Pickett), [James Longstreet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Longstreet), [John C. Pemberton](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_C._Pemberton), [Thomas Jonathan “Stonewall” Jackson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_Jackson), and Robert E. Lee. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2021, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smallest-but-most-influential-battle-in-history/955586/45 "2021-12-08T18:05:07Z")
Reading the thread so far, I think this one is going to be hard to beat. Definitely a battle that could have gone different ways, definitely small, and definitely had a direct major lasting impact on civilization extending over a thousand years into the future. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2021, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smallest-but-most-influential-battle-in-history/955586/46 "2021-12-08T18:14:56Z")
Critical yes, but rather massive and not small. ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2021, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smallest-but-most-influential-battle-in-history/955586/47 "2021-12-08T18:15:55Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Thinking outside the box: [The Battle of Chapultepec](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chapultepec). It was entirely possible that, had things gone differently, casualties could have included [Daniel H. Hill](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_H._Hill), Ulysses Grant, [George Pickett](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Pickett), [James Longstreet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Longstreet), [John C. Pemberton](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_C._Pemberton), [Thomas Jonathan “Stonewall” Jackson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_Jackson), and Robert E. Lee. While they were all part of the American invasion of Mexico, were all of these (or any of these) men at Chapultepec? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2021, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smallest-but-most-influential-battle-in-history/955586/48 "2021-12-08T18:25:57Z")
No more than any other of the thousands of city bombing by both sides during WW2, including the Blitz, Dresden, Tokyo and many, many more. Hiroshima was a legit target during total war. The fact that it used atomic rather than conventional bombs doesn’t change it. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2021, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smallest-but-most-influential-battle-in-history/955586/49 "2021-12-08T18:26:39Z")
All of them were directly involved in the battle. Lee was wounded. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2021, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smallest-but-most-influential-battle-in-history/955586/50 "2021-12-08T18:38:38Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > Santa Anna had invited Americans to settle the land due to that lack of numbers, but those Americans decided they didn’t like the rules Mexico wanted them to play under, especially the lack of slavery. No, it was the previous Spanish Government. And in fact Texas was excluded from the anti-slavery Mexican laws. Santa Anna tore up the Mexican Constitution , which was the primary grievance the Texicans had against him. In fact if you read the Texicans letters, etc from the period, there were two causes, and the texicans were split on these- 1. Desire to join the USA 2. A demand Santa Anna restore the Mexican Constitution Slavery is not mentioned. Sanat Anna was a dictator and a despot. Many other Mexican states also rose in revolt, in fact one had a short lived life as a independent nation. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2021, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smallest-but-most-influential-battle-in-history/955586/51 "2021-12-08T18:42:04Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > As for the Soviets, the Emperor’s formal surrender statement pretty much belies that idea. To him, it was the demonstration(s) of the new weapon that could obliterate a city in an instant that made continued resistance impossible. Yes, it gave him a Face Saving excuse. More conventional warfare would not have done that, despite Communist propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2021, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smallest-but-most-influential-battle-in-history/955586/52 "2021-12-08T19:20:38Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Knowing just how destructive an atomic bomb can be shaped the military policies of the world super-powers for at least fifty years, and continue to be used as deterrents for military action among lesser powers as well (e.g., India and Pakistan). It’s a matter of interpreting the question, but I’m seeing a distinction between the impact of the atomic bomb’s existence and the impact of the bombing of Hiroshima. I feel the post-atomic military and political policies derive from the former not the latter. I’ll point out that the hydrogen bombs that were developed a few years later have made their impact felt without ever being used in a war. I feel the same would have been true of the atomic bombs even if they hadn’t been dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. > [@cmkeller](#): > > Japan surrendered after the second bombing, but you can’t have a second bombing unless you have a first bombing. It wasn’t Nagasaki was in and of itself such an asset that its destruction in particular is what did the trick. As for the Soviets, the Emperor’s formal surrender statement pretty much belies that idea. To him, it was the demonstration(s) of the new weapon that could obliterate a city in an instant that made continued resistance impossible. But if you place the Hiroshima bombing in a chain of events that led to Japan’s surrender, you have to also include the battles of Okinawa, Iwo Jima, the Philippine Sea, Guadalcanal, Midway, and the Coral Sea. I don’t feel that the Hiroshima bombing was any more decisive than these other battles. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2021, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smallest-but-most-influential-battle-in-history/955586/53 "2021-12-08T20:01:51Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > If Richard had lived, his brother John wouldn’t have ascended to the throne of England as soon as he did, which means no loss of French lands, no Barons’ Wars, and no Magna Carta. That’s quite a big impact from one crossbow bolt. That’s a tough counter-factual. It relies IMHO a little too much on a traditional view of Richard being super-competent and John being super-incompetent and I don’t think that was quite true. In the immediate moment Richard was doing okayish in his war with Philip Augustus (mostly stalemated), but at very heavy internal cost. Normandy was being bled white and the knock-on effects of that significantly fed into John’s defeat a few years later. Indeed some parts of the Norman border lands like Aumale had already been lost since 1196 and were never regained. You might be right - Richard’s reputation as a military commander was well-founded. But Philip was no slouch and personal generalship wasn’t everything. The structural improvements in the French position under Philip Augustus, both financially and politically, were mirrored by a weakening on the Norman side. Richard was in a weaker relative position vis-a-vis the French crown compared to his father Henry II and John would end up being in a weaker position yet relative to his brother (and to some sizeable extent due to the actions of his brother). The problem with the Anglo-Norman realm is that the king-dukes didn’t do any of the things that anyone playing a computer or board game would reasonably be expected to do 🙂. They were constrained by their own medieval world views and strategy like the careful consolidation and centralization of their heterogeneous realm in the way that you or I might try in Crusader Kings was a little alien to them. Henry I seemed to have had a rather more war-gamey, kinda non-expansionist approach to the Anglo-Norman realm. But he was a slick Machiavelli and his policies, insomuch as you can label them that, were reversed by the Plantagenets. I’m not sure I’d label the collapse as inevitable. Bouvines for example could have easily brought a reversal of fortunes, at least for a time. But I think the odds were stacked against a strong Anglo-Norman state long-term and things were not trending in Richard I’s favor. ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2021, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smallest-but-most-influential-battle-in-history/955586/54 "2021-12-10T14:55:30Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > as deterrents for military action among lesser powers as well (e.g., India and Pakistan). And Israel and the middle east. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2021, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smallest-but-most-influential-battle-in-history/955586/55 "2021-12-10T15:26:13Z")
True, though Israel’s aren’t “officially” acknowledged, and no other Middle East country has them yet, though Iran is obviously seeking to build them. ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2021, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smallest-but-most-influential-battle-in-history/955586/56 "2021-12-10T17:28:27Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > deterrents for military action among **lesser powers** as well (e.g., India and Pakistan). Okay - let me try again. (Bolding above mine) What is your definition of “lesser powers” : Most sources rate India’s Military Strength at #4 or #5 in the world, much above than the UK or France Here is one for example : > **[2024 Military Strength Ranking](https://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-listing.php)** > > Ranking the nations of the world based on current available firepower. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2021, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smallest-but-most-influential-battle-in-history/955586/57 "2021-12-10T17:41:52Z")
I would agree on the Battle of Badr. I was shocked about a year ago when I saw a video on it just how few soldiers participated. I would put forth the Battle of Fort Sumter. About 1500 total on both sides and it kicked off the Civil War. Of course you would have to believe the war was not inevitable - the Star of the West was fired on earlier and it did not start the war and in fact, there is an argument that the reason it provoked a war was Congress was out of session at the time (returning over 2.5 months) so Lincoln would not have to deal with opposition in Congress over putting down the rebellion. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2021, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smallest-but-most-influential-battle-in-history/955586/58 "2021-12-10T19:30:02Z")
In my head, I see “super-powers” (in the political entity sense, of course) as being those who other nations seek the economic or military patronage of, and “lesser powers” as those who, no matter what their military strength, are not sought out as such. ---
**Author:** ![am77494](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d2c977/32.png) [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2021, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smallest-but-most-influential-battle-in-history/955586/59 "2021-12-10T21:41:34Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > In my head, I see “super-powers” (in the political entity sense, of course) as being those who other nations seek the economic … Got it. So Saudi Arabia is a super-power, and Israel is not ! ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2021, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smallest-but-most-influential-battle-in-history/955586/60 "2021-12-12T01:09:17Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > > [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > > > No way to know what would have happened if they had failed, but probably not good. > > Not to dismiss the heroics of the Norwegian forces involved with that operation but the German nuclear program wasn’t going to go anywhere with or without that heavy water plant. The Germans had suffered a major brain drain to the west and also didn’t have resources for a Manhatten project. Hitler had pretty well abandoned the idea of a nuclear bomb. Of course the Allies couldn’t be sure of that so it was worth the risk to try taking it out. Just to complete the story, Norwegian resistance forces were able to sabotage a ferry carrying heavy water before its cargo could be transported to Germany, resulting in its sinking in a deep part of a Norwegian fjord. This brave act might not have been the decisive factor in Nazi Germany failing to develop a nuclear bomb, but it did make possible _The Heroes of Telemark_, starring Kirk Douglas and Richard Harris. > **[The Heroes of Telemark](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Heroes_of_Telemark)** > > The Heroes of Telemark is a 1965 British war film directed by Anthony Mann based on the true story of the Norwegian heavy water sabotage during the Second World War from Skis Against the Atom, the memoirs of Norwegian resistance soldier Knut Haukelid. The film stars Kirk Douglas as Dr. Rolf Pedersen and Richard Harris as Knut Straud, along with Ulla Jacobsson as Anna Pederson. It was filmed on location in Norway. > The Norwegian resistance sabotage the Vemork Norsk Hydro plant in the town of Rj... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smallest-but-most-influential-battle-in-history/955586.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smallest-but-most-influential-battle-in-history/955586.md?page=4)