# Smapti is Pitted **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 21, 2014, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907 "2014-05-21T08:14:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 101
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2026, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/2001 "2026-01-01T23:14:29Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > In ancient Israel, sure, ethnicity and religion were basically identical, but during the Exile, the Jews became an ethnically, culturally, and linguistically diverse nation united _only_ by religion (they had the Hebrew language in common, but nobody spoke it as their first language). If Jews stopped being religious, they stopped being Jews and assimilated into the majority culture. How many pre Enlightenment people of _any_ Abrahamic religion were particularly secular? The reason that you didn’t really have non practicing Jews is that you didn’t really have people who didn’t practice a religion. If a Jewish person stopped practicing Judaism, it was almost always to practice something else, not to become secular. About the only proto-secular pre-Haskalah Jewish thinker I can think of is Baruch Spinoza, but that’s on the cusp of the Haskalah movement. He didn’t stop being Jewish, even though his community cut him off. > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Now with the founding of the State of Israel, it is arguably possible to maintain a secular Jewish identity across generations in a way it hadn’t previously been. We’ll see how that works out. There are plenty of secular Jews multiple generations down the line who have little or nothing to do with Israel. Some of them are on this very message board. That change in Judaism had nothing to do with the creation of Israel, it has to do with the fact that Judaism underwent a similar process to Christianity’s Enlightenment, called the Haskalah, which made many sects of Judaism more tolerant and less fundamentalist. > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Personally, I feel it would have been better if Israel had adopted Yiddish as the national language and allowed Hebrew to retain its status as a language used only in religious contexts. Why? That would place German/Eastern European Jews in a weird place over Jews from elsewhere in Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East. ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2026, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/2002 "2026-01-02T01:03:05Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > Accordingly, it’s possible to objectively judge people according to the degree of their adherence to these norms. Like basketball or carpentry, Judaism is a thing that it’s possible to be bad at. Hence the old saying “Two Jews, one opinion.” ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2026, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/2003 "2026-01-02T21:38:37Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > How many pre Enlightenment people of _any_ Abrahamic religion were particularly secular? The reason that you didn’t really have non practicing Jews is that you didn’t really have people who didn’t practice a religion. If a Jewish person stopped practicing Judaism, it was almost always to practice something else, not to become secular. About the only proto-secular pre-Haskalah Jewish thinker I can think of is Baruch Spinoza, but that’s on the cusp of the Haskalah movement. He didn’t stop being Jewish, even though his community cut him off. I think we’re talking past each other. The point I’m trying to make there has nothing to do with secularism. I’m saying that since Jews live all over the world, speak a wide variety of languages, and include members of all racial groups, it doesn’t make sense to speak of us as an _ethnic_ group. Like America, we are a nation, but not an ethnicity. I suppose you could argue that “Israeli” is at least evolving into a unique ethnicity, but that’s a modern phenomenon that doesn’t include all Jews. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2026, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/2004 "2026-01-02T22:23:19Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > The point I’m trying to make there has nothing to do with secularism. I’m saying that since Jews live all over the world, speak a wide variety of languages, and include members of all racial groups, it doesn’t make sense to speak of us as an _ethnic_ group. Like America, we are a nation, but not an ethnicity. If we’re not tied together ethnically, in what way am I, an atheist, Jewish? ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2026, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/2005 "2026-01-04T21:26:29Z")
You are a member of the nation, or tribe if you prefer. There are many other Jews who live in different parts of the world from you, who you have no language or recipes in common with, with whom you are united _only_ by the fact that at some point in the past your ancestors practiced the same religion. I don’t think it’s a crucial point, but I do think that calling the Jewish people an “ethnicity” is stretching that word well beyond its usual meaning. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2026, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/2006 "2026-01-04T21:32:15Z")
(forgot half this post in my drafts) > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > I think we’re talking past each other. The point I’m trying to make there has nothing to do with secularism Except that it does. You said: > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > If Jews stopped being religious, they stopped being Jews and assimilated into the majority culture. The reason that Jews didn’t become secular Jews in the past, and instead if they stopped practicing Judaism they stopped being Jews, is that _at that time becoming secular wasn’t really seen as an option_, so the only people who stopped being practicing Jews were people who became practicing Christians, or Muslims. The reason that Jews _now_ can stop practicing without no longer being Jews is that _secularism now exists_. > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > I’m saying that since Jews live all over the world, speak a wide variety of languages, and include members of all racial groups, it doesn’t make sense to speak of us as an _ethnic_ group. Like America, we are a nation, but not an ethnicity. Ethnic groups are social constructs. The social construct of “Jewishness” is very dissimilar to the social construct of “Americaness”. Jews of different races who live in different places and speak different languages belong to different Kehilot (communities) like Ashkenazis, Sephardim, Mizrachim, Beta Israel, and so on; these different communities make up the ethnic group of Jewish people. Yes, it’s a very diverse ethnic group. It’s still an ethnic group. > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > I suppose you could argue that “Israeli” is at least evolving into a unique ethnicity, Israeli is a unique nationality; there are many Kehilot within that nationality, and multiple ethnicities too. Israel has a unique culture that’s formed out of the blend of different Kehilot and the local Israeli experience, you could call it “Sabra” if you needed to differentiate it from “Israeli”. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2026, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/2007 "2026-01-05T00:15:30Z")
Alright, fine, we can be an ethnicity, you win. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2026, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/2008 "2026-01-05T00:24:45Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Jews of different races who live in different places and speak different languages belong to different Kehilot (communities) like Ashkenazis, Sephardim, Mizrachim, Beta Israel, and so on; these different communities make up the ethnic group of Jewish people. Yes, it’s a very diverse ethnic group. It’s still an ethnic group. So, an ethnic group that is comprised of . . . multiple ethnic groups. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2026, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/2009 "2026-01-05T06:14:37Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > So, an ethnic group that is comprised of . . . multiple ethnic groups Kehilot are not separate ethnic groups. Your extreme ignorance is showing once more. ---
**Author:** ![Kron](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kron/32/12444_2.png) [@Kron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kron)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2026, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/2010 "2026-01-05T15:17:34Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Kehilot are not separate ethnic groups. Your extreme ignorance is showing once more. I’ll embrace my ignorance; why are they not separate ethnic groups? Seriously asking, as this is all outside my ken. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2026, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/2011 "2026-01-05T15:40:00Z")
Not to get deeply involved in this pit thread hijack, but as a Jew, I never once considered my feelings of Jewishness to be connected to nationality (or even that that was something I should consider). To be fair, ethnicity and nationality can have some overlapping definitions, but the claim that Jewishness is a nationality and NOT an ethnicity seems like a stretch. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2026, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/2012 "2026-01-05T16:54:19Z")
I like “nation”, “people” or “tribe”. “Ethnicity” is a modern sociological concept, and we’re dealing with an extremely premodern notion of identity. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2026, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/2013 "2026-01-05T17:01:44Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > “Ethnicity” is a modern sociological concept, and we’re dealing with an extremely premodern notion of identity. This is a little where I run into trouble with what you’re saying. We are _definitionally_ dealing with a modern notion of identity when we’re talking about people alive today. Some folks alive today draw from newer schools of thought about identity composition, and some folks draw from older traditions. Some folks have really clear rubrics for membership in an identity, and others are much looser. There is no external perspective from which we may regard these competing ways of forming identity and declaring one method more valid than another. Any position we take on the subject is necessarily subjective. So, when someone declares that a trans woman is bad at being a woman, or declares the same thing about a butch woman, or insists that real men don’t eat quiche, or declares that Catholics aren’t real Christians, or that Jim Bakker wasn’t a true Christian, or declares that Obama or Harris aren’t really Black, or that real science fiction fans hate Star Wars or love Star Wars, or that early Zionists were bad at being Jewish, or that no true Scotman sugars his porridge, I reject the argument. There’s no way to gatekeep identity that holds water. The closest you can come is to say, “Here’s how I define this specific identity, and by my own rubric, so-and-so doesn’t qualify; but I understand that there are other rubrics out there for the same identity, and obviously they qualify by their own rubric.” Which is admittedly a lot less satisfying to say; the only advantage it holds over the gatekeeping is that it’s accurate. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2026, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/2014 "2026-01-05T17:05:08Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > and we’re dealing with an extremely premodern notion of identity. Maybe this is the difference… I don’t feel like my sense of identity (or that of my Jewish community) is based on premodern notions. Claiming that the “premodern” notion is what ought to hold water for folks today in this particular instance but not other instances (like, what about premodern notions of freedom, of governance, of family, etc etc) seems like an approach that is going to run into a lot of problems. (or, what LHOD said). ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2026, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/2015 "2026-01-05T17:10:43Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > There’s no way to gatekeep identity that holds water. Which is why I’ve opened up three credit cards in your name. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2026, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/2016 "2026-01-05T17:18:56Z")
Hardy hardy har ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2026, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/2017 "2026-01-05T17:20:18Z")
Well spoken, and I do not disagree. I make no claim that my point of view is somehow objectively correct. ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2026, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/2018 "2026-01-05T21:31:22Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > we’re dealing with an extremely premodern notion of identity. Such as the doctrine that only Jews have a [divine soul](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_soul) (though that’s not widely believed by the non-Orthodox). ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2026, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/2019 "2026-01-06T00:57:54Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > I like “nation”, “people” or “tribe”. “Ethnicity” is a modern sociological concept, and we’re dealing with an extremely premodern notion of identity. Yeah, though I think I might modify that to _“a relatively narrow criterion of ethnicity which differs markedly from modern perceptions of ‘multi-ethnic’ identities”_. Kind of like Native American tribal membership qualifications. Most modern NA tribe members, like most Ashkenazi Jews, have significant amounts of other ancestry, but as far as the national/tribal identity is concerned, it doesn’t make you “less” identified in any formal way. Which is different from how many people nowadays think about “mixed” ethnic heritage—_“I’m half French-Canadian and a quarter Mexican and an eighth each Norwegian and German”_, that sort of thing—where the mixture is perceived as having a sort of automatic diluting or diversifying effect on the primary identity, whichever that is. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2026, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/2020 "2026-04-26T12:20:04Z")
@Smapti believes that the gang rape of a prisoner by Israeli soldiers, and the failure to prosecute this gang rape, is “irrelevant”: > [@Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2626): > > Okay, thanks for responding. > > Here it is on record – @Smapti feels that Israeli gang rape of prisoners, and the failure to prosecute such gang rape, is irrelevant: > > > [@Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/2625): > > > > I feel that the importance of destroying Hamas renders such complaints irrelevant. @Smapti, years from now, will you be comfortable with yourself as a person that believes gang rape and failure to prosecute gang rape is irrelevant? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907.md?page=100) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907.md?page=102)