# Smapti is Pitted **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 21, 2014, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907 "2014-05-21T08:14:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/341 "2014-07-18T17:06:41Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > cause to suspect him of a come and a warrant to search his net activity. Jesus, _that_’s a crime? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/342 "2014-07-18T17:07:49Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > He was sorely misguided. How so? HUAC, under his leadership, was opposing the enemies of the State. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/343 "2014-07-18T17:11:13Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Jesus, _that_’s a crime? No, that would be my autocorrect acting against me. I meant to type “crime”. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/344 "2014-07-18T17:13:47Z")
> [@andros](#): > > How so? HUAC, under his leadership, was opposing the enemies of the State. Which is admirable, but he was seeing enemies of the state where none existed. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/345 "2014-07-18T17:27:41Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > No, that would be my autocorrect acting against me. I meant to type “crime”. Yes, I know. > [@](#): > > Which is admirable, but he was seeing enemies of the state where none existed. In the early 20th century, the Communist Party of the United States of America had some 50,000 members. The Socialist Party of America had around 40,000. The IWO numbered 200,000. Were these people not enemies of the State? ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/346 "2014-07-18T17:29:35Z")
**Smapti** might be a facist (who isn’t nowadays?), but his logic makes about as much sense as democracy worshippers who believe the electorate is filled with idiots voting against their own self interest. Voting “wrong,” in other words. If only everyone voted correctly, the ship of state would right itself. Delusional. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/347 "2014-07-18T17:32:57Z")
> [@andros](#): > > In the early 20th century, the Communist Party of the United States of America had some 50,000 members. The Socialist Party of America had around 40,000. The IWO numbered 200,000. Were these people not enemies of the State? It has never been illegal simply to be a member of any of those parties, and very few of those people ever engaged in any treasonous behavior. In any event, McCarthy was much more interested in imaginary spy rings and conspiracy theories than he was in rooting out actual traitors. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/348 "2014-07-18T17:33:58Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Voting “wrong,” in other words. If only everyone voted correctly, the ship of state would right itself. Delusional. What’s delusional about it? ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/349 "2014-07-18T17:36:09Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I agree. But that’s not what we’re talking about; Steve MB is arguing that it should be impossible for the police to snoop on him even if they _had_ cause to suspect him of a come and a warrant to search his net activity. No, as I read his argument, it’s more along the lines that he should not be prohibited from locking the door to his house just because the police might, hypothetically, be granted a warrant to search the place. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/350 "2014-07-18T17:40:44Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > No, as I read his argument, it’s more along the lines that he should not be prohibited from locking the door to his house just because the police might, hypothetically, be granted a warrant to search the place. He’s gone on so many times now about how great it is that "the tech community is developing encryption that can never ever be cracked. He appears to be arguing that he should be able to put up an armored door that can’t be unlocked or broken down, retrofit his entire house into a giant panic room, and ignore the cops and their warrant. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/351 "2014-07-18T17:40:50Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > It has never been illegal simply to be a member of any of those parties, and very few of those people ever engaged in any treasonous behavior. > > In any event, McCarthy was much more interested in imaginary spy rings and conspiracy theories than he was in rooting out actual traitors. Yes. And yet, people doing perfectly legal things were persecuted, and prosecuted, by an overreaching arm of the government. Which, interestingly enough, involved surveillance including wiretapping, whisper campaigns, and mail tampering. Careers were destroyed. _Lives_ were destroyed. And you wonder why some of us might be concerned about keeping our perfectly legal activities private? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/352 "2014-07-18T17:44:04Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > It has never been illegal simply to be a member of any of those parties, and very few of those people ever engaged in any treasonous behavior. Coming from someone who said Obama ought to classify the Republican Party as a terrorist organization? Ever heard of hypocrisy? ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/353 "2014-07-18T17:46:06Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > He’s gone on so many times now about how great it is that "the tech community is developing encryption that can never ever be cracked. He appears to be arguing that he should be able to put up an armored door that can’t be unlocked or broken down, retrofit his entire house into a giant panic room, and ignore the cops and their warrant. Is it illegal to secure one’s house? I mean, I’m in the UK so maybe things are different, but I’m not aware of any law which states that your house must be accessible to the police regardless of how it is secured. The police may obtain a warrant to force entry, but you’re not obliged to give a key to the government just in case this happens. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/354 "2014-07-18T17:52:46Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Coming from someone who said Obama ought to classify the Republican Party as a terrorist organization? > Ever heard of hypocrisy? The legal authority did not exist in the early 20th century for the president to deem a group terrorist and take legal action against it. Had it, things might have been different. Thanks to the GOP and the voters who put them in office and kept them there, it does now. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/355 "2014-07-18T17:54:03Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Yes. And yet, people doing perfectly legal things were persecuted, and prosecuted, by an overreaching arm of the government. Which, interestingly enough, involved surveillance including wiretapping, whisper campaigns, and mail tampering. Careers were destroyed. _Lives_ were destroyed. > > And you wonder why some of us might be concerned about keeping our perfectly legal activities private? The fact that authority can be abused is not an argument for anarchism. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/356 "2014-07-18T19:31:59Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I agree. But that’s not what we’re talking about; Steve MB is arguing that it should be impossible for the police to snoop on him even if they _had_ cause to suspect him of a come and a warrant to search his net activity. > [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Realistically, what can be created is a security system that is extremely difficult but not utterly impossible to crack. Ordinary people won’t be able to get in at all (unless you do something stupid like use your name spelled backwards for a password); megacorps and governments will be able to get in (or bypass) the security with significant effort. The end result will be to make mass fishing-expedition surveillance impossible while leaving enough leeway for a reasonable number of individually targeted surveillance operations, each of which would need justification for the resources expended. Ideally, the encryption itself would be prohibitively difficult to break, leaving the option of using bypass measures such as keylogging (thus inhibiting the government from spying on people for illegitimate reasons such as political opposition, because any significant risk of getting caught tips the cost-benefit analysis away from such dirty tricks). > > Given that this situation satisfies the legitimate needs of law enforcement and national security, arguments based on those concerns may be dismissed out of hand as irrelevant to this issue. Now, you’ve left yourself two options. Do you prefer to confess to illiteracy, or to dishonesty? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/357 "2014-07-18T19:36:31Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The legal authority did not exist in the early 20th century for the president to deem a group terrorist and take legal action against it. [“Illiteracy” pulls ahead by a nose!](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espionage_Act_of_1917) > [@](#): > > Much of the Act’s enforcement was left to the discretion of local United States Attorneys, so enforcement varied widely. For example, Socialist Kate Richards O’Hare gave the same speech in several states, but was convicted and sentenced to a prison term of five years for delivering her speech in North Dakota. Most enforcement activity occurred in the Western states where the Industrial Workers of the World was active.[22] Finally Gregory, a few weeks before the end of the war, instructed the U.S. Attorneys not to act without his approval. > > A year after the Act’s passage, Eugene V. Debs, Socialist Party presidential candidate in 1904, 1908, and 1912 was arrested and sentenced to 10 years in prison for making a speech that “obstructed recruiting”. He ran for president again in 1920 from prison. President Warren G. Harding commuted his sentence in December 1921 when he had served nearly five years.[23] ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/358 "2014-07-18T19:54:09Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > [“Illiteracy” pulls ahead by a nose!](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espionage_Act_of_1917) I’m sorry, I missed the part of the Espionage Act that empowers the president to declare an organization as a terrorist group. Could you read it to me? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/359 "2014-07-18T19:57:27Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Now, you’ve left yourself two options. > > Do you prefer to confess to illiteracy, or to dishonesty? Neither. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/360 "2014-07-18T21:02:11Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The fact that authority can be abused is not an argument for anarchism. No shit. Gosh, it’s a good thing I have not tried to use it as an argument for anarchism, huh? So you’re arguing that if I were, say, a Hollywood actor and a member of the Communist Party during the Red Scare, _doing absolutely nothing illegal_, and I were to take steps to keep my political affiliations private from the government (including, say, installing a secure phone line), that I would be…an anarchist? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907.md?page=19)