# Smapti is Pitted **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 21, 2014, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907 "2014-05-21T08:14:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/421 "2014-09-09T16:39:13Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Let’s start with one specific example of this phenomenon, and see how it might be addressed. What particular steps need to be to reinforce the state’s courage so that James Clapper can be clapped into the hoosegow for perjury? None, because first he would have to commit perjury in order to be jailed for it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/422 "2014-09-09T16:42:15Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The good of the citizenry is the reason the state exists and the reason that it must possess the authority to deal with those that have no respect for the social contract and the expectations of human behavior in a civilized society. When the state is too afraid of its own citizens to stop them from openly breaking the law, the result is anarchy. What is the appropriate action when, as has happened through the majority of American and world history, the state is a perpetrator and accessory to crimes like rape, murder, kidnapping, slavery, and the like? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/423 "2014-09-09T16:49:40Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What is the appropriate action when, as has happened through the majority of American and world history, the state is a perpetrator and accessory to crimes like rape, murder, kidnapping, slavery, and the like? For those who disagree with the government’s policies to work within the law to change them. Or to declare war against the state and hope that they win, because winners don’t get hanged for treason. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/424 "2014-09-09T16:49:45Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The good of the citizenry is the reason the state exists and the reason that it must possess the authority to deal with those that have no respect for the social contract and the expectations of human behavior in a civilized society. When the state is too afraid of its own citizens to stop them from openly breaking the law, the result is anarchy. And if the state uses its authority to round up all the jews and put them in gas chambers, that’s not a problem because “social contract”? I wouldn’t make such obvious allusions to Hitler, but _you went there first_. [QUOTE=You] [QUOTE=BobLibDem] If you’re a German being told to do something by the SS, probably not a good idea. Is that your ideal for the US, to be a place where police authority is never to be questioned? [/QUOTE] Yes. [/QUOTE] That’s twisted, man. That’s fundamentally sick in a way I can’t even begin to wrap my head around. You don’t seem to get that _sometimes, the state is wrong_. Sometimes, the reins of power end up in the hands of people who would abuse it. Sometimes, the result is a human catastrophe. In fact, you’ll find that throughout history, the result of unmitigated power is _almost always_ catastrophe. Hitler. Stalin. Pol Pot. Mao. Franco. The list goes on. And when you give people power via the social contract, and they abuse it, how do you claim it back? By following the laws _that give them even more power?_ No! Indeed, rebellion is a _necessary component_ of that contract. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/425 "2014-09-09T16:52:51Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > For those who disagree with the government’s policies to work within the law to change them. > > Or to declare war against the state and hope that they win, because winners don’t get hanged for treason. What about civil disobedience, which was widely used in the Civil Rights movement, and not “within the law”? Was MLK Jr. wrong to utilize tools like this? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/426 "2014-09-09T16:54:56Z")
When authority is never questioned, it makes it much, much easier for the authorities to abuse their power. Do you disagree with this statement, **Smapti**? What should a young woman, for example, do, if a policeman instructs her to do something obscene? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/427 "2014-09-09T16:56:23Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > And if the state uses its authority to round up all the jews and put them in gas chambers, that’s not a problem because “social contract”? I wouldn’t make such obvious allusions to Hitler, but _you went there first_. IIRC, mass execution of the Jews wasn’t even legal under the Reich’s law in the first place, which is why it was done on the QT. > [@](#): > > Indeed, rebellion is a _necessary component_ of that contract. Maybe. Which rebellions against the US do you consider to have been legitimate? The one to keep slavery legal? The one to avoid paying taxes? The one to avoid having to educate black children? The one to allow a self-proclaimed messiah to continue raping prepubescent girls? The one to replace FDR with a fascist dictator? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/428 "2014-09-09T16:56:26Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > None, because first he would have to commit perjury in order to be jailed for it. We’re talking about events in the real reality (the one where Clapper’s sworn testimony was revealed to be false by Snowden’s whistle-blowing), not whatever phantasm is currently swirling through _your_ reality. PTtKUWtC. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/429 "2014-09-09T16:57:05Z")
Another question for **Smapti** : do you believe “I was only following orders” is a valid defense, from a moral standpoint, against an accusation of being party to an atrocity? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/430 "2014-09-09T16:58:28Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > When authority is never questioned, it makes it much, much easier for the authorities to abuse their power. Do you disagree with this statement, **Smapti**? I agree, which is why I believe in capital punishment for acts of corruption or malfeasance by public officials. > [@](#): > > What should a young woman, for example, do, if a policeman instructs her to do something obscene? Submit, make a mental note of his name and badge number, memorize as many details as possible, activate some sort of recording device if she has one, and sue the police department for everything it’s worth the very next day. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/431 "2014-09-09T16:59:14Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Which rebellions against the US do you consider to have been legitimate? How about [Nat Turner’s rebellion](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nat_Turner%27s_slave_rebellion)? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/432 "2014-09-09T16:59:44Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > What about civil disobedience, which was widely used in the Civil Rights movement, and not “within the law”? Was MLK Jr. wrong to utilize tools like this? Yes and no. MLK and his followers broke the law, but they were willing to be arrested and imprisoned for what they believed. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/433 "2014-09-09T17:00:49Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Submit, make a mental note of his name and badge number, memorize as many details as possible, activate some sort of recording device if she has one, and sue the police department for everything it’s worth the very next day. You don’t think she should fight back? What if she can grab his gun and shoot him? If she does fight back successfully, and injures or kills him, should she be prosecuted because she injured/killed a cop? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/434 "2014-09-09T17:01:40Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > We’re talking about events in the real reality (the one where Clapper’s sworn testimony was revealed to be false by Snowden’s whistle-blowing), not whatever phantasm is currently swirling through _your_ reality. PTtKUWtC. 1. Clapper’s obligation not to divulge classified information to the public trumped his obligation to answer a question which constituted entrapment. 2. Snowden has never exposed any evidence that would testify as to Clapper’s state of mind when he was testifying. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/435 "2014-09-09T17:01:49Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Yes and no. MLK and his followers broke the law, but they were willing to be arrested and imprisoned for what they believed. So you were wrong in your statement in post #423? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/436 "2014-09-09T17:02:40Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > How about [Nat Turner’s rebellion](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nat_Turner%27s_slave_rebellion)? A religious lunatic who took a hallucination as a sign that God wanted him to kill all the white people he could find? Yeah, I’m lumping that in with “unjustified”. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/437 "2014-09-09T17:03:17Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I agree, which is why I believe in capital punishment for acts of corruption or malfeasance by public officials. But do you have sufficient courage of your convictions to personally pull the switch (or pull the trigger, or press the syringe, or whatever) on James Clapper? > [@Smapti](#): > > 1. Clapper’s obligation not to divulge classified information to the public trumped his obligation to answer a question which constituted entrapment. Nonsense. “I cannot answer that question in open session” was the proper response; he chose to perjure himself instead. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/438 "2014-09-09T17:03:40Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So you were wrong in your statement in post #423? No. MLK and his followers were wrong to break the law. They were right to accept the consequences of their lawbreaking. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/439 "2014-09-09T17:04:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Another question for **Smapti** : do you believe “I was only following orders” is a valid defense, from a moral standpoint, against an accusation of being party to an atrocity? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2014, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907/440 "2014-09-09T17:06:32Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > But do you have sufficient courage of your convictions to personally pull the switch (or pull the trigger, or press the syringe, or whatever) on James Clapper? If I were a state-appointed executioner, and Clapper had committed an act of malfeasance and been convicted, and I were ordered to execute him… then I’d be a completely different person with a different upbringing, set of life experiences, and moral code than I actually am, and I’m in no position to say what that person would have the courage of their convictions to do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/smapti-is-pitted/688907.md?page=23)